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eternal-echoes:

prettyvintageafternoon:

White supremacy is not just burning crosses on people’s lawn. It’s non-black people thinking they have paternal ownership over black people and their bodies, which is what you are doing.

This entire idea that ‘pro-lifers’ like you have made up in your head about “saving the black race” because you think it’s your place to intervene in black women’s medical decisions is exactly why the anti-abortion movement is trash. Black women are already the most likely to die in childbirth in the United States - particularly in anti-abortion states, and you think that you’re saving us by criminalizing abortion?

Please leave black women’s wombs alone.

You are not helping us.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful to provide more pregnancy medical resources to African American women so they don’t have to die in childbirth, rather than encouraging them to kill their own children?

I-

…

The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.

Most of you are conservatives who don’t even want to pay taxes. But pro-lifers care about spending time and money to provide medical resources to pregnant women?

Please.

Politicians who are elected by people who think like you don’t even want to talk about maternal mortality with regard to black women. For example, Louisiana is one of the worst states in the entire country for maternal mortality, and Senator Bill Cassidy - a Republican ‘pro-lifer" who represents this state, essentially said that if you ‘adjust for race’ then their maternal mortality rates aren’t that bad.

If you are pro-life and that state that you are paid to represent has some of the worst maternal mortality rates for a particular group of women and you choose to disregard that, you’re in no position to make medical decisions for that group.

Period.

And then there are the cases where black women’s doctors can’t even provide care because of people like you. There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New York for an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.

The fetus inside of her did not have a brain or a skull. It was not going to survive.

Any time a doctor responsible for their black patient is too scared to do their job because they fear fanatics like you throwing them in prison, that’s a problem.

So no. You anti-abortion psychos have had more than enough time - in the half a century that you have spent trying overturn legal protections for women’s medical privacy, to provide medical resources for marginalized women.

You people did not do that.

You people have spent all your time and energy crafting anti-abortion laws to incarcerate women (because the anti-abortion movement loves punishment), threatening medical professionals with jail time or removal of their hard-earned certifications, yelling at people outside of Planned Parenthood locations when you don’t know why they are there, calling women whores for having sex lives you don’t agree with and just sticking your nose in other people’s business.

Black women did not call you and say “Bestie, please make it possible to arrest me for murder if I get an abortion. 🤪”

You want to be a “savior for the black race” without doing any substantive work.

Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.

Here we go again! If you want to keep telling people who they can and can’t argue with and what they can and can’t talk about (quoting you: “Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.”) you can go ahead and do that. Doesn’t mean we have to obey you. 

What you’re saying is simply not true. First off:

“The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.”

You really shouldn’t use phrases like “at all” when you’re trying to argue facts. Because that’s absolutely not true. In 2019 alone, pregnancy resource centers served two million pregnant women. They provide holistic resources as well as donations. They offer pregnancy tests, STD testing, ultrasounds, housing, and educational resources as well as assistance applying for Medicaid, WICs and SNAPS.

There are more than 70,000 PRC workers in this nation alone, 12% of whom are working on a non-paid, volunteer basis to provide care for pregnant women, and more than 10,000 of them are licensed medical professionals. 

And if good will and volunteer work are not proof enough for you, millions of dollars are spent toward providing resources to pregnant women. 

Those resources are just not “kill the baby.” 

So you’re very wrong. While some anti-abortion-claiming people might not care about providing resources, you can’t say all anti-abortion people don’t care. 

“There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New Yorkfor an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.”

I’ll bet Nancy Davis did have to go to New York for an abortion. Because according to New York City Health Department reports, there are thousands more specifically black babies aborted in that city alone than there are born—and that’s been the case for years. 

Couple that with your Planned Parenthood name drop? You must not realize this, or you wouldn’t be mentioning it—Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was one of the most vile racists in our country’s history. You want to talk about white supremacy and trying to control others? This is a quote from her, to a friend in a letter in December of 1939: 

“We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” 

She was actively trying to manipulate African-American pastors into arguing for eugenics that would contribute to the murder of their children from the pulpit. Margaret Sanger even wrote a book called “‘The Pivot of Civilization” where she  argued for the weeding out of “unfit” people groups—which she specifically defined as anyone poor, sick, disabled, or in a minority. 

Abortion, in this country, does not have it’s roots in helping black people. It has it’s roots in killing black people off, one baby at a time, and selling it to them as “health care.” 

In reality, across the world, including in pro-life countries like Poland or in Chile, every time pro-life laws are passed, maternal mortality drops. There is a solid correlation between the two. 

But this all comes back to the last issue we discussed, and that is this—

The fact that Margaret Sanger was a racist trying to commit genocide against black people and used the invention of Planned Parenthood abortion clinics to do it; the fact that the black population in America remains low while the percentage of black children that are murdered is skyrocketing; the fact that abortion clinics specifically and disproportionately are established within walking distance of communities with higher populations of minorities; ALL OF THESE FACTS point to racism when you realize that, (no matter what you believe about the fetus’ validity as a life) the black population is shrinking in America. And it is doing so because you’re aborting your children, because they’re targeting you. You’re buying the propaganda telling you that killing your children is healthcare.

It isn’t. It’s murder. It’s murder, tending toward genocide. 

Only 0.15% of all abortions performed in America can be considered necessary to save the life of the mother. Let me state that again: less than 1% of all the children murdered are murdered to save the life of the mother.

You can’t claim “we people” don’t care about pregnant women when we’re the ones offering aid, begging black women to stop allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the money hungry business of abortion-providers, and engaging in debates like this on the Internet with actual facts. I mean, you can claim that. You’d just be incorrect. Like you were above.

Here’s the other thing, @prettyvintageafternoon. Human life has intrinsic worth and value from conception because God (Yahweh, of the Bible) assigns that worth and value to us. That same God cares infinitely more about you, about pregnant women, about black people, than I ever could. And He’s the only one who can both administer justice to the innocent, and redeem the guilty. He heals the hurt and restores the broken. So if you, yourself, are living as the lord and master over your own life, I’m not ashamed to beg you: please stop. Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as Lord of your life. He’ll make you new. Just like He’s going to make all of this division and mess new, eventually. 

My God.

“…Doesn’t mean we have to obey you.”

You are so arrogant, it’s ridiculous. You think black people are just things for you to save, when we didn’t even ask for your presence.

Again, black women did not ask for you to take away our bodily autonomy. You just feel the need to do that so you can be savior.

All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.

The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.

(Source)

The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.

The anti-abortion is not here to serve people.

And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.

The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.

(Source)

So no, abortion clinics are not coming for black people. They’re not posting ads telling black people (or anybody else for that matter), “Hey, you need an abortion!” That’s a lie that white people like you choose to believe so you can feel needed.

And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.

And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.

Which of us is telling the other how she thinks, how she feels, and generalizing both motives and actions based on limited information? Which of us is making character assumptions based on a total lack of personal knowledge? You don’t know anything about me except what I just said–that I have beliefs about abortion and a worldview that is different than yours, and yet you are assuming my race, my opinion of you, and my innermost motivations.

But I’m the one who’s being controlling? @prettyvintageafternoon , you are the one assuming and generalizing and refusing to do your own “research.”

But I’m not here to get into a name-calling battle with you.

“All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.”

Let’s just skip right over the fact that I never said I was special for providing an ultrasound. Because you’re right, “licensed medical professionals” (by which I’ll assume, based on tonal argument, that you mean “licensed medical professionals who DO NOT work for PRCs,” because I just said that 12% of PRC workers are licensed medical professionals) don’t always pay themselves on the back for providing services. No. Instead, they get paid. And most PRC workers are volunteers.

Secondly, not all non-PRC licensed medical professionals offer all of the services I just described. Because not all of them are licensed to do all of the separate tasks I just described.

And ALL OF your above paragraph is not only taking my words in a different direction, but it’s besides the point. You made a truth claim: that anti-abortion people do not care about pregnant women “at all.” I disproved that truth claim BY SAYING that if anti-abortion organizations did not care, there would not be PRCs offering the aforementioned services. I answered your truth claim. You’re trying to swerve off-topic by accusing PRC workers/me of “patting ourselves on the back” and feeling “special for providing an ultrasound.” In reality, none of that has any bearing on what we’re talking about, so let’s get back to the point.

“The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.”

What “real clinics?” Abortion clinics? Here we get down to it–for some reason, you get to decide which medical licenses professionals are “real?” If they’re not providing abortions, they’re not providing care? Or are you saying “real clinics” comparatively? Because there are more than one kind of Pregnancy Resource Center. Some are medically licensed as an establishment, and some are no more medically licensed than a soup kitchen and therefore would be held to different standards based on services offered.

Where’s your source for the “purposeful lies to get pregnant women in the door?” Where’s your source for supposed “false aid?”

As far as Google itself as a source, you do realize that Google is a corporation? Google is not an objective fact-presenting platform. It is a business. Therefore just because Google “flags” something does not mean that I should take their word as reflective of objective fact and absolute truth. I mean, not even university professors asking for sources cited on academic papers will accept Google’s “flagging” as a reliable source, in most instances.

But that doesn’t even matter. Again, it’s not a problem worth addressing. PRCs were brought up as en example of care offered by anti-abortion people, a group you were erroneously stating “does not care about pregnant women at all.” I’m just pointing out that your counterpoints are not only off-topic, but poorly supported.

“The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.”

This is very untrue in several senses. 1) You have no idea whether or not every anti-abortion supporter knows your proposed fact, “that they don’t have to abide by HIPPA regulations.” You have no idea of that. You’re just assuming a whole group of people’s motives and intent without any source to back it up.

2) This is an incredibly disingenuous, misleading way to phrase your point. You make it sound like all PRCS offer health services (by using the vague word “serve”) which are not regulated by HIPPA. But in actuality, ONLY PRCs that do not ever claim to offer medical services directly do not need to be regulated by HIPPA…just like a baseball team wouldn’t need to be regulated by HIPPA. Because a baseball team is not, nor DID IT EVER CLAIM TO BE, staffed by licensed medical professionals. The fact that some PRCS do have licensed medical professionals working for them means that those practitioners are absolutely regulated by both HIPPA and state legislature. So, sure, some PRCs aren’t regulated by HIPPA, but they’re the ones that wouldn’t need to be, because they’re not offering health care any more than a soup kitchen is, and they never claimed to be.

“And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.“

It doesn’t matter how big or red a font you use–you better stop speaking for all black people. Not all black women know who Margaret Sanger is. I didn’t. My friends didn’t. My classmates didn’t. Saying that black women already know these facts is an outright lie. It might be more accurate to say you already knew that, sure.

Secondly, I absolutely do not see all black women as “breeders of your race.” You’re the one who read that into what I was actually saying, which is simply logical: without mothers, there is no continuation of any living organism. That is fact. That is reality. But the word “breeders” which I never said, which YOU assumed, adds a connotation to it that makes it sound like I’m limiting, comparing, or reducing the black woman to a specimen of animal needed to continue the species. That was absolutely not the point of what I said, and you 100% know it. You’re rephrasing what I say and outright twisting the words to lie and assume my motive.

I didn’t say black women were breeders. I said that black children are being murdered disproportionately to their birth rate. I said that Margaret Sanger was specifically targeting the black community to exterminate them and founded Planned Parenthood to do it. In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist. You sure are arguing with a person who isn’t even there. You sure are projecting a debate opponent from your imagination onto me, because none of what I’ve said has provided proof of your truth claims about what I am or what I believe or even what I claim.

And guess what else? Nobody’s arguing to “take away your reproductive decisions” here, in this debate between me and you. I am arguing to take away your state-given ability to murder another human being. And no amount of you re-phrasing or twisting my words can make the issue any more or any less about that.

Margaret Sanger was a racist and her racist work is not only thriving, it’s celebrated. That’s a fact. That’s quantifiable by current and historical data. It is truth; I don’t have to use it for anything. It just is.

“The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.“

It doesn’t show how I see all black people. It shows how I see the decisions made by SOME black people, and it shows how effective the historical founders of eugenics’ methods were.

Because actually, not all black people think the way you do. And it’s pretty revealing of you, yourself, that you, again, think you can speak for all black people AND assume my intentions and character at the same time. You’re the one relegating all black people to believing the same thing as yourself.

Additionally, I said “she was actively TRYING to manipulate black ministers.” I did not make any comment on whether or not she succeeded.

You sure are projecting a debate opponent who isn’t actually here onto me. You sure are arguing against points I never made. Why are you doing that?

“Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.”

This is, again, disingenuous and misleading, either of you or of the source you’re citing. Because the truth is, only 13.6% of the country is made up of black people. In fact, to include other ethnicities, here’s the government census:

White people make up more than half of the total U.S. population. So of course any abortion clinic that is within walking distance of a community with high amounts of ethnic-minority population is ALSO going to be located “in neighborhoods that are mostly white.” Because everything’s “mostly white,” according to our national census percentages. Even the highest concentrations of minorities will still be outnumbered by whites in most communities. That doesn’t change the fact that abortion clinics are within walking distance of minority-heavy communities.

So again, sure, what you’re saying SOUNDS like abortion clinics aren’t being racist. But when you look at the whole picture and don’t completely ignore their historical origins to boot, they definitely are racist.

Here’s a source for that. I DID do my research. Listen, the racism of the abortion industry, especially Planned Parenthood, is a well-documented fact. It is undeniable. I’m happy to argue that point from several other directions, because there’s no shortage of proof.

“And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.“

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are better than abortion is one truth claim.

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are justified in collecting a profit because they are an alternative to abortion is ANOTHER, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TRUTH CLAIM THAT I NEVER MADE.

I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry. But the context of our discussion on this thread was “care,” which is arguably more noticeable when money is not a consideration in the conduct of the care-giver, so I brought that up as a compare-contrast. Again, you’re trying to assault my character, motive, and even assign me a race in order to discount my arguments without doing the work of actually counter-arguing.

So miss me with that nonsense.

“And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

“Proselytizing” carries the connotation of a crusader forcing someone to pretend to believe something at sword point, or a charlatan manipulating someone with false promises. I’m doing neither. I can’t force you to believe something, and I can’t trick you into faith. That’s not how it works, and I never claimed it was.

If you mean, “Christians can’t help giving testimony,” then yeah, no, we can’t. Acts 4:20: “for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

If you were walking towards a land mine with no way of knowing it was there, but I had been warned about the land mine beforehand and saw you about to die, I would do the same thing I’m doing now: I’d tell you what I knew. You’re saying I should just let you walk toward the land mine, shrug my shoulders, and say, “hey, it’s no business of mine what they believes about the ground they walk on.”

No. I won’t. And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing. What nonsense.

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

You’re very, very wrong about this. In more ways than one. First off, “people like me?” Like who? Like Christian’s? Like white people?

What makes you think I’m white? You don’t know my race. You could claim to because I don’t agree with certain things, but that’s wouldn’t be evidence of anything but your own profiling.

But that’s not as important at all as what you believe about the God of the Bible’s connection to slavery.

Yes, many slave traders in U.S. history tried to use the God of the Bible to enslave black people (and other ethnicities.) But guess what? The lead abolitionists used the God of the Bible to abolish slavery, too. Know why?

Because the Bible and the God of the Bible DO NOT condone the American slave trade. Christianity is not a white man’s religion. It’s earliest non-Jewish origins can be traced to this day back to Ethiopia and Asian Antioch. Christianity was in Africa well before the American slave trade was.

You know good and well that just because one group of people uses a particular creed to justify their actions, that does not mean that the creed itself has anything to do with their actions. Not unless the creed LINES UP with those actions. And Biblical Christianity does not line up with the brutal enslavement and degradation of the black community throughout American history.

Get to know the actual God I worship instead of the fallible people claiming to worship Him.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

Yes–you are valuable–but you DO need to be made new. He already paid the ultimate price for you.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.“

You sure can make “reproductive” decisions without me, or white people, or whoever you’re referencing, present. But no, I won’t leave anybody alone who is actively advocating for murder. And as long as murder is the decision you’re making, I’ll speak out against it.

This whole conversation is not about you.

You keep centering yourself, your opinions and your wanting to be a savior in other people’s medical care when they did not ask for you. Do not whine to me about your character.

”…You better stop speaking for all black people.“

What exactly do you think you’ve been doing this entire time?

My entire point, since you choose to be willfully ignorant, is that black women can make their own medical decisions - including to have an abortion or not, without you. It’s so simple that even you can understand it.

And yes, when you make the argument that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population, you are arguing that people within the black population who can give birth - black women, need to breed to maintain their race’s numbers.

Your desire to avoid the racist implications of your beliefs is not my problem.

But then again, you pretty much admit that you are racist.

“In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”

Thank you for admitting your own lack of character. You did my work for me.

“I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry.”

Thank you for admitting that too. You are so intellectually lazy that you will pose adoption as an abortion alternative and then you choose not to care about the fact that they survive off using poor women’s babies as product, despite you literally saying that you know how screwed up the adoption industry is when we were talking.

And yes, you WERE proselytizing.

“Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as the Lord of your life.”

I don’t recall asking you for a sermon. You keep trying to drag me into your religion UNPROVOKED when it had NOTHING to do with the conversation. You’re not saving me from a land mine. You’re actively trying to convert me to your religion when I did not ask you to do so.

“And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing.”

Here you go! You keep making this conversation about you and your feelings.

And then you bring up abolitionists when that has nothing to do with my point. It does not matter if Christianity isn’t only practiced by white people. People used your religion to enslave people who look like me.

That is a fact.

I do not care about other people’s decision to be Christian. That is their right.

MY POINT is that I am not interested in joining your religion. You can keep it.

“Yes – you are valuable – but you DO need to be made new.”

Notice the use of the word ‘need.’

You see how you keep using authoritative language to try and pull me into a religion that I am not interested in joining? That falls under proselytizing, which is attempting to convert.

“But no, I won’t leave anyone alone who is actively advocating for murder.”

So you acknowledge that black women did not ask for your presence and you still choose to be in our reproductive business?

Just say yes so that we can be done.

Okay, @prettyvintageafternoon, all of that about my religion, my proselytization, my “willful ignorance,” and how I’m making this personal is an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

Now, can you actually answer any of my counter arguments? If you want to stop talking about me, can I suggest that you start with literally…any of the non-me-focused counterarguments I made? The points I made about multiple PRC types? The points I made about adoption agencies as an alternative to abortion being a separate truth claim than their justification (since you mentioned it…again…as if I didn’t just re-address it?) The points I made about the multi-ethnic divisions of population proportions? The points I made about your validation method for “care” or “service” to pregnant women?

Any of those? No?

The only points of mine that you’ve quasi-addressed are the ones that relate to my defense of my own character, or lack thereof (like when I said “I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”)

You’re still actively twisting what I’ve said about murdered black children to mean that I am somehow racist. You’re ignoring anything I have to say that directly refutes your claims about abortion or anti-abortion advocates.

Case in point: I never made the argument “that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population.” I made the argument that abortion clinics don’t care about the black population because they’re killing black children at a higher rate than they’re being born, intentionally, through abortion–and I made that point as a compare/contrast to PRCS, to specifically refute your claim about which party actually cares about pregnant women.

But you took that point and only addressed it in order to make it about whether or not I’m racist. So again–you gonna answer my actual arguments?

As for the only question you’ve actually asked me: yeah, big time, I’ve BEEN acknowledging that black women didn’t ask for me to get involved in this issue. You knew that; don’t know why you think me staying it over and over will make me “be done.”

Because, the thing is, when one person is advocating for murdering another person, (doesn’t matter what gender or race) the right thing to do is for any third parties (me) knowledgeable of the event to do something or say something about it.

So I’m not done. You can be if you feel like it; it’s a free website and, as I said, you really stopped arguing with what I was actually saying a while ago and just started attacking straw men.

Oh, and I guess, if your definition of proselytizing is “making any truth claims about others or the state of the world,” then sure, I was proselytizing. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, you did choose to make this whole conversation personal. You trying to pretend that you’re logical after trying to shove your religion down my throat for the past couple days every time you had an opportunity speaks to your lack of character. You weren’t speaking any kind of truth. You were attempting to convert me when that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Plain and simple.

And yes,

“I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

Those were your words and they represent you very well. I didn’t tell you to type that. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Onto the matter of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, you listed a bunch of services that they offer to women as a form of care. I responded by reminding you that doctors already provide those services. MY POINT is that Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not do anything that medical professionals don’t already do for their patients, so you using the afformentioned services as a way to say PRCs care about pregnant women doesn’t mean much of anything. AND you acknowledged that most of these places are run by volunteers - meaning they don’t have to abide by federal regulations when serving people. That’s a huge problem because pregnancy is a medical situation for the person who is pregnant.

Then you acted like abortion clinics being ‘within walking distance’ of minorities is proof of racism, as if they are forcing people of certain races to use their services. I told you that most abortion clinics are in majority white communities, which is true. Doesn’t matter if white people are a majority of Americans or not. Abortion clinics are not telling black people they need to get abortions, whether you like it or not.

A black woman can get an abortion.

A black woman can have kids.

A black woman can do both of those things if she wants.

That’s not up to me.

All I care about is her choices being available to her.

My overarching point - the reason why I’ve been going back and forth with you, is that what a black woman chooses to do regarding her own reproduction is none of your business or anybody else’s.

Nobody twisted what you said. Your argument had a racist implication and I responded to it.

If race wasn’t relevant to begin with, you wouldn’t have brought up all that crap about Margaret B. Sanger or abortion being ‘sold to black people as healthcare’ in the first place.

You’re just restating your former points, not addressing the new ones I made. I told you, NOT all doctors provide the same services as PRCs. Sure, maybe both can provide ultrasounds, but no, both do not provide things like housing, baby care supplies, counseling, etc. You’re also…still ignoring the fact that I addressed your claim about volunteers and how they actually do have to abide by federal regulations when offering medical services. You’re also still ignoring what I actually said about adoption and it’s alleged ‘‘justification.’

 And you’re just restating your point about white neighborhoods, AND restating my counter argument involving percentages without addressing how that argument actually applies. 

I’ll counter, again, the only thing you said which actually tried to answer me: “Doesn’t matter if the majority of the population is white or not.” Actually, yes, it does, in the context of where abortion clinics choose to establish themselves and whether or not they’re purposely targeting black people to sell their services to. It is not an accident that they look for the highest concentration of minorities in majority-white neighborhoods. That is a direct connection to the other fact: that the highest percentage of children killed in an abortion clinic in this country are black. Factor that in with Planned Parenthoid’s racist origins, and you’d have to be sticking your head in the sand not to see the racist implications. Not because I view the women of color as breeding stock. Because abortion clinics treat them as breeding stock. That is my argument. You’re the one who made it about me, because you couldn’t refute my actual points.

I’ll say it again, to give you opportunity to respond: You started making a distinction about black people when it comes to abortion, not me. You started making truth claims about which party cares about pregnant women. Within the context that you started this with, which was black people and parties that care about pregnant women, I brought up Margaret Sanger. Because she is relevant. You introduced:

A) The idea that anti-abortion parties don’t care about women

B) The example of a black woman having to go across states to get an abortion, wherein abortion was represented as a type of care in contrast to the alleged “‘lack of care” that anti-abortion parties have

C) Planned Parenthood, who provided that alleged care when anti-abortion parties, such as the Louisiana leaders, wouldn’t.

When you introduced A, B, and C, I followed right on track with the same topics. You began this debate as if race were a factor. I just picked up where you left off. And you continue to make most of your argument about whether or not I’m racist, and re-stating your points as if mine were not countering them, as if all you need to do is repeat yourself. 

Finally, you continue to dodge counters to your supporting arguments and return to make your “overarching point:” that what a black woman (again, you’re the one who made that distinction in the first place) does with her own reproduction is her business and so me and anyone who doesn’t like it should shut up and mind our own businesses.

But I’m not arguing with your overarching point. Because sure , when you say “reproductive rights,” that phrase, sociologically and scientifically can mean a few different choices that I wouldn’t want to have any control over or say in, such as: whether or not a woman decides to conceive a baby. That’s her business. How many babies a woman wants to conceive; that’s her business. How she raises or determines her own future in relation to children or sex life; that’s her business.

But abortion is not part of her reproductive rights, because abortion is murder of a separate human. Abortion is stepping outside of the realm of “what happens the the single human body of the woman” and into a realm where two humans are being affected. One, against its will—the innocent, entirely helpless baby who never asked to allegedly “impose” on the mother by existing in the first place. But it’s not that baby who is protected and offered choices once it does exist. It is the woman who is given the choice to murder. 

And that’s when it becomes my business. 

Glad you dropped the Bible verses and the BS claim about me “attacking” your character.

Yes, if you choose to bring up the black population specifically then the people within that population who can give birth - women with my skin color, are a part of the conversation. We’ve been over this.

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion deates and then want to ignore the women of that race and their experiences.

You trying to act like PRCs care about pregnant people for providing counseling or housing when there are actual counselors with training and experience and housing that can be obtained through governmental services (which most pro-lifers literally vote against because most of them are conservatives who despise welfare and social programs - as well as paying the taxes to pay for those things) is not unique.

Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.

Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.

You pressuring or forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of what they want when they’re the one who’s pregnant, is treating them as breeding stock. For someone who’s so obsessed with abortion clinics, because you think they’re targeting minorities, you’re no better than they are.

The fact that you chose to pivot to Margaret B Sanger when I was talking about a particular black woman who was negatively impacted because of anti-abortion policy shows how easily you disregard minorities when it’s convenient. And no, the harm that was done to her was not “alleged.” She publicly told everyone about her entire experience, and she has a right to be upset.

You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights. Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.

Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent. Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is. Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. Simple.

You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.

When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice. If they want to kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

I don’t know how I missed this. But wow. I literally had to double-check and make sure that this reblog was in response to me, because of how blatantly and insistently you keep changing what I have said AND what you, yourself, have said. 

I mean, you might as well be arguing with a completely different user who had entirely different arguments than mine. Let’s review. 

This is you. Bringing up “black women,” first, in the very first post of this whole thread. 

Again, let me say it as clearly as possible: you started the conversation. And you made it about black women. Like I said, HERE:

Then, somehow, you still manage to try and argue this:

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion debates and then want to ignore women of that race and their experiences. 

What are you doing? What are you talking about? @prettyvintageafternoon , can you see this? Can you see that you are the one who brought up race, and then called me a racist, and are now acting like I’m the one who brought it up? 

“Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.”

Again, what are you talking about? Who asked them to kiss my feet? You already tried this. You already said PRCs “expect a pat on the back,” and I already said, “nobody’s asking for that.” We’ve done this already. For the final time:

YOU claimed that PRCs do not care. I refuted that with examples of services that they offer. And you are somehow claiming that just because they’re offering services that others offer, that negates it as proof of their care. That’s like saying, “the soup kitchen in the South does not care about homeless people, because you can buy soup at the store.” 

But we’ve already been through this. Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. Can you hear me? Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. What I am saying is that you cannot prove your original claim, which is that they don’t care. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. 

“Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing, or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.”

Seriously, @prettyvintageafternoon, can you actually follow any of what I’m actually saying, or are you just going to keep arguing against someone who isn’t here? Someone you made up? 

prettyvintageafternoon. Margaret B Sanger IS the proof that Planned Parenthood is targeting people to walk inside. That was not a pivot. THAT was my proof that black people are being targeted. That, and the clinic’s location in relation to the disproportionate minority populations. 

That was my response to you talking about a particular black woman. It was totally in the natural flow of your argument: YOU brought up that she was black, and that abortion was care that she was receiving, and withholding it was harmful. I responded by saying, “no, Planned Parenthood is not caring for black people like the one you’re talking about, because it is very demonstrably targeting black people, and here are two proofs of how.” 

Now this is getting so repetitive and nonsensical. You have done nothing but repeat yourself or argue with a straw man. For the final time, if you actually want to stand up for what you believe in, and against what I’m actually saying, then stand up against what I’m ACTUALLY saying. Can you respond to these counter arguments—these counter arguments, right here—or not?

• There are more than one type of Pregnancy Resource Center, and all of the ones that offer medical services which qualify for complying with HIPPA, DO comply with HIPPA. So you lied. 
• Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative only to murdering children. 
• When the biggest percentage of a population is white, then no matter where an abortion clinic is set up, it will be in a “predominantly white” area—but that does not mean that it is not also in the largest concentrations of minorities. That is what “minority” means. Therefore: Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate amount of clinics within walking distance to minority-concentrated neighborhoods, indicating racial targeting. 
• Christianity was in Ethiopia long before the slave-traders who claimed to be Christians.

Can you, or can’t you, actually refute what I actually said? Because if you can’t, then everyone reading this is not seeing you stand up for what you believe in. They are seeing you repeat yourself, dodge the counterarguments, and hide behind straw men. 

While you’re doing that, I’ll actually be responding to the new truth claims you brought up. 

“You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights.  Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.”

This is silly. You don’t get to decide that reproductive rights include any of the things you just listed—most importantly, killing the child. Good job, you summarized the debate topic. So now what?

“Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent.  Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is.  Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent.  Simple.”

How in the world can you omnisciently claim that every pregnant woman is also an innocent woman? What are you talking about? Innocent of what, exactly? Sex? You’re making an argument I’m not making. I never posited that sex was a punishable offense, and that the punishment must always be letting a child live. 

Children are not punishments. Innocence is not in reference to the absence or presence of sex. And for the record, the fault of rape is the rapists. Not the pregnant woman’s—and not the baby’s resulting from the rape. 

I can claim that any and all fetuses are innocent because it has made zero choices. It can’t. It is, by definition, dependent and defenseless. But you don’t get to claim that about pregnant women everywhere—because they all make choices, and you have absolutely zero way of knowing if those choices were good, bad, right, wrong, criminal, etc., universally. 

So what you’re doing here—let’s be so clear—what you’re doing here is believing a narrative that every woman who walks into an abortion clinic with the intent to murder has never made a morally wrong or criminal decision—AND you are implying that this means they can murder children—AND you are implying that children are a punishment that a woman who must carry a child to term is subjected to unjustly. That’s exactly what you’re doing, just to be clear. 

You’re absolutely right: no THING should get to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. But guess what. A baby is not a “THING” like a tumor or a wart or a cyst. A baby is a human being. And by being a human being, it has rights. And those rights are “you don’t get to kill me, just because my existence is dependent on you, or because your situation is tragic.”

How’s that for simple?

“You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.”

So be it. Me telling someone that they can’t cut their five year-old toddler apart with a knife, whether they like it or not, whether I know their medical history or how that five year-old toddler is affecting their health, would probably also be imposing. But that’s how justice and right and wrong work. If you want to murder, just people are going to impose upon you not to do it. That’s the argument here. You wanna argue against that? 

“When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice.  If they want to kick you out, you gotta go.  If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.”

This is the most tired, broke, sad reasoning I’ve ever seen. And it’s just lazy. 

You’re telling me, first of all, that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?

Really? 

Autonomy is defined as “the ability to make an informed, uncoerced decision,” or, in terms of personal sustainability, someone who does not need someone else’s resources to survive.

So I’ll ask you again. Is that what you really believe? That humans have to meet those requirements, or else their bodies are at the disposal of anyone who does meet those standards? I.E. A pregnant woman can think and make decisions on her own, and can, to some extent, feed and care for herself, therefore she should be allowed to murder a child in the fetus stage who can’t do any of those things?

So how about the woman who’s on SNAP? She’s dependent on the United States Food Stamp Program to supply her with sustenance. She’s not autonomous. She’s dependent. Can the United States rip her apart as soon as she becomes inconvenient? Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all. 

Oh, or are you just talking about bodily? Well, how about the person diagnosed with Alzheimer’s? They are not autonomous. They are dependent on someone else for everything—they can’t even make informed decisions, because information disappears from their minds. Should their caretakers, family members, doctors, rip them apart and murder them? No? Why not? They’re not autonomous. Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

How about if that Alzheimer’s patient was living in their son’s house? Then they got sick with Alzheimer’s and literally couldn’t make the choice to move out, because they can’t remember where they are or what they’re supposed to be doing. No way to make an independent choice for their own safety. You’re arguing that the son should say, “if I wanna kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.” …and you’re arguing, furthermore, that the son should not just “kick the Alzheimer’s parent out,” but has every right to grab a machete and start hacking that Alzheimer’s parent to pieces, or poison them, then suck the body parts out of their house. After all, bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

How about a three year-old child? Too young to understand sex, dependent on adults to feed and clothe and care for them. Should those adults get to do whatever they want with that kid?  Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

All you really mean is, anyone who can be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman (I.e. a child who cannot speak up for or defend itself, or even choose to flee the womb) should be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman. 

That’s what you’re saying. Is that what you genuinely want to be saying? Assuming you even respond to what I actually said.

First of all, if you’re talking about reproduction in within the black population then yes, black women are automatically included in the conversation. How you thought otherwise is beyond me.

Second, if you’re going to bitch and moan about being called a racist, you need to look at the words that you used.

“I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

…Yes, those were your words. If you’re racist, at least be woman enough to say you are and stop acting indignant when other people call you out on it.

Third, yes - I did respond and say that Crisis Pregnancy Centers are not unique for offering services that can be obtained at other places. Furthermore, most Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not follow HIPPA. That’s a fact. And even the ones who do follow HIPPA are pretty questionable, apparently, since a woman had to get one of her fallopian tubes removed after being told that her ectopic pregnancy was viable not too long ago. The main point of a Crisis Pregnancy Center is to pressure women to continue their pregnancies by any means necessary, regardless of any risk to the person who is pregnant.

Any time you are so desperate to pressure others to continue their pregnancy that you set up shoddy alternatives to actual clinics and give people faulty medical advice, you cannot claim that you are acting in the best interest of that patient. Period. And before you ask, “faulty medical advice” includes the following (and yes, CPCs have done these).

• Incorrectly reading ultrasounds
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of mental health problems
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of breast cancer
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of infertility
• Offering abstinence-only education

It’s one thing to offer services to pregnant women. If they take them, that’s up to them. It’s another to intentionally place yourself near abortion clinics to lure people, posture yourself as medical alternative and then tell them things that are not scientifically true and/or tell them things about their pregnancy which are not true, which can put their life at risk.

On the subject of adoption, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. If someone is going to adopt a kid, someone else has to carry a pregnancy to term successfully for that to be possible. I don’t care how many women have infertility issues or how many have had miscarriages, it is not the responsibility of an individual to pop out babies so that someone else can have their pick of the litter and choose which child they want to add to their “perfect family.” Someone who is viably fertile and pregnant doesn’t owe you anything. If someone wants a kid, they can pay or adopt a baby. You do not get to treat someone as a free or affordable breeder because you are desperate for a child. End of story.

In response to your argument about Planned Parenthood targeting minorities, being within walking distance =/= targeting someone. Aside from the fact that most Planned Parenthood locations are in majority white neighborhoods and the fact that not all Planned Parenthood locations even offer abortion as a service, being within walking distance of someone does not mean you’re targeting them. If I’m hungry and I want a salad, I can drive right past the McDonald’s nearest to me, go to WalMart and buy my desired vegetables. If someone wants an abortion, they’re going to go to someone who offers that service. That’s literally why women leave states that aren’t abortion-prohibitive to get to places that offer abortion (like Nancy Davis did, whose story you easily disregarded because it wasn’t convenient for your narrative).

Also, Margaret B Sanger did not create Planned Parenthood to target black Americans. Planned Parenthood did not even start offering abortion until after Roe v Wade. She did create birth control clinics and popularized the term “birth control.” Abortion has existed long before her, and despite any problematic opinions that she may have held, anti-abortion zealots like you acting like she’s the boogeyman of the black community in order to justify stripping black people who reproduce of their reproductive rights is laughable.

People want the services that they want. That’s something that “pro-lifers” like you have never understood with regard to conversations about abortion-access. You, a non-black person consistently arguing that abortion is “SoLd tO bLaCk pEoPle As HeAlThCare” literally shows how comfortable you feel infantilizing minorities.

Black people, black woman included, do not need you to ‘save us’ or ‘protect us’ from our own reproductive decisions. We can make our own choices, different though they may be depending on which black person you speak to. People in the anti-abortion movement have been using us as an anti-abortion talking point for years, despite a majority of black people not voting for anti-abortion politicians (most of which are conservative), supporting reproductive justice organizations and campaigns (which do include abortion access), etc.

On the subject of Christianity, you bringing up Ethiopia does not dismiss the history of Christians using their religion as a means to justify enslavement or treating black people as less than them. It does not take away from Christians giving versions of the Bible to enslaved people and cutting out stories like Moses’ in order to discourage rebellion. It does not take away from Christian slave owners using their religion to teach slaves to be obedient to them as Christians are to their God. Christianity has played a huge role in the mistreatment of black people within the confines of American history. You, trying to proselytize to me earlier on this conversation and lecture me with your religious beliefs (which had nothing to do with the conversation) does not change any of that.

“Children are not punishments.”

Tell that to the person that you see in the mirror, along with every single anti-abortion advocate who tells women to close their legs, during any abortion-related conversation. You people use forced pregnancy as a means to punish people who have sex constantly. You “pro-lifers” are notorious for that.

If children weren’t punishments to “pro-lifers” like you, you wouldn’t force other people to have them.

Next, your argument about “innocence.” Pro-lifers like you bellyache about “innocent babies being slaughtered” - especially when standing outside places that you think offer abortion, to emotionally manipulate and pressure someone who is pregnant into carrying that pregnancy to term. Y'all are the same people who take photos of people walking into clinics, shout at them, etc. It’s the reason why a lot of places that offer abortion have clinic escorts because people who think like you like to harass patients.

Yes, I did say that pregnant women are also innocent. Unless having sex inside of wedlock or outside of it is suddenly a crime, yes - the pregnant person is innocent.

You saying “the rape is fault of the rapist” is a strawman. I didn’t argue otherwise and neither has any other pro-choice advocate. If someone is forcibly impregnated against their will and they decide to keep their pregnancy, that is their choice. They are well within their rights to do that. Anti-abortion zealots like you forcing a victim of sexual assault to carry a pregnancy to term, if they do not want to, is punishing them for being assaulted.

“You’re telling me that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?”

Yes.

That’s how that works. Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand.

Someone who uses a governmental service is not…comparable to a fetus. They’ve already been born and they can remove themselves from that governmental program. That is not remotely the same thing as using someone’s body for 9 months (best case scenario) in order to stay alive.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

A three year old child has also already been born. Killing a three year old is murder - actual murder, not just what anti-abortion weirdos like you call murder. It’s legal murder, which involves the presence of premeditated malice. A woman who gets an abortion is not a murderer. A woman who stabs a 3 year old in the chest very much is. Easy difference to understand, for the rest of us who have functioning braincells.

Comparing a fetus to various racial groups, alzherimers patients, actual children is not the argument that you think it is. It actually makes you look intellectually lazy, which I expect from you at this point.

No “human being” gets to use someone’s body to sap nutrients from or grow against that person’s will. If you want to treat fetuses like everybody else, fine. We will hold them to the same standard.

Also, most abortions are medication abortions and most abortions happen within the first trimster. You arguing that “BaBiEs ArE bEiNg RiPpEd ApArT” is not only not factual, it’s also emotionally manipulative. There are no bodies being ripped apart.

Overall, my beliefs are the following.

1. People are entitled to make their own reproductive decisions, which includes abortion
2. Black people are not the horse on which the anti-abortion movement gets to ride on to justify forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term
3. Nobody owes someone else a kid to adopt just because they’re viably fertile or pregnant
4. If you, especially as a non-black person, support forcing a black person to carry a pregnancy to term because you think they need to breed to maintain their racial population, you are racist. Black people, black women in particular, are not breeders to fulfill any type of racial quota.

@prettyvintageafternoon

…You either have no capability of following an argument, or, you know you cannot refute my claims, so you’re ignoring them in favor of repeating yourself.

I gave you a list of my points for you to respond to, in plain English. Nice and neat, in one place. And did you respond? Nope.

You used some of the words in that list of points to pretend like you were addressing them, but actually, you just went back over what you’ve already said. Or, you began arguing against something that I never said. Which is the definition of a straw man argument.

Look. If you can’t understand what I’m saying, that’s one thing. But if you can’t refute what I’m actually saying, the words that are actually written down, why waste time repeating yourself? I’m certainly not going to. I’ve done that enough, here, and you either can’t read what I’m saying, or you don’t want to address it. That’s clear. I’m willing to bet you just don’t want to address it. That’s what your repeated “pivot” to calling me racist, assuming my race, and other red herrings and straw men seem to indicate.

But here’s something I’ll ask in plain English, in response to your claim, and just leave it open-ended. Then we’ll see if you can finally directly respond, or if you’ll just keep doing what you’ve been doing. At least the people who bother to read this will be able to see who can reason and argue, and who can’t.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

No, prettyvintageafternoon. NOT like “everyone else.” For some reason, even though you just admitted that an Alzheimer’s patient, like a fetus, has no ability to make their own decisions, and is dependent on their next of kin, like a fetus–they don’t get to have “various legal protections.” They’re torn apart in the womb because they’re inconvenient, burdensome, and/or scary to the woman carrying them.

it’s literally the same scenario. The differences are, an Alzheimer’s patient is near to the end of their life at the time that they cannot make their own decisions. A fetus, if they weren’t aborted, would be at the beginning of theirs. You’re literally proving my point. There is no philosophical, ethical, or reasonable difference between an Alzheimer’s-afflicted parent dependent on their next of kin and a fetus dependent on their mother. Except that we allow and encourage the murder of one, by the millions, and protect the other.

And yes. Bodies are being ripped apart in abortions. Arms. Legs. It is literally a common form of abortion. It’s not the only one, and some states have outlawed it, but it’s one of them. When a child in the womb has reached a certain stage of development, they have to dismember it through the use of forceps in order to remove all traces of the pregnancy from the mother–have you ever actually studied abortion? Your ignorance is showing.

First of all, I have responded to everything you said. Your logic is not sound enough to come up with a rebuttal. That is your problem.

“I never claimed not to be racist.”

Your words. If you don’t like being called racist, don’t type sentences with a double negatives implying that you are. And don’t use minorities as an anti-abortion talking point because you think that we’re too stupid to make our own reproductive decisions without your input.

Does every black woman choose to get an abortion? No. Does every black woman choose to have children? No. Does any of that have to do with you, as someone who is not them? Absolutely not.

A black person getting abortion or choosing to have kids is their choice. Not yours.

Now, onto your bullshit argument about comparing fetuses to Alzheimer’s patients.

An Alzheimers patient is not a fetus.

The fact that “pro-lifers” like you have to compare fetuses to living, breathing people in order to make an argument proves that you cannot argue honestly.

An Alzheimer’s patient has already been born, and because of that and the fact that they cannot make their own decisions, their next-of-kin is the one who speaks with their doctor and caregivers and/or takes care of them by themself.

So no, someone’s body is comparable to a retirement home or special medical care facility. Caring for an older person who has been born is not comparable to carrying a pregnancy to term for 9 months, which has risk for the person who is pregnant.

Also, not all Alzheimers patients are older. Most are, but not all.

You keep using words like “inconvenient” and “burdensome” in the context of pregnancy because it’s easier for you to imply that pregnancy is an easy, passive process rather than something that physically damages the pregnant person’s body and carries medical risk.

And you lied. A majority of abortions are medication abortions (using mifepristone and misopristol) and a majority of abortions take place within the first trimester - before arms and legs are formed. Most late-term take place due to medical reasons, primarily when the pregnancy is no longer viable. Nobody is waiting until the day before they go into labor to shrug and say “I don’t want this pregnancy anymore. Let me go get an abortion” - despite what people like you want to believe.

If you want to argue about stripping bodily autonomy from another person, I suggest you do so honestly or stop bitching.

Darling, you have not been able to actually respond–as in, refute or concede my point–to one point I have made. Not one. You’ve simply repeated your own points, while mirroring a few of the new words I use back at me. It’s a way to look like you’re responding, but is easily seen through by anyone reading.

For example. Right now, you are using the words "arms and legs,” to pretend you’re responding to my point about dismemberment. But actually, in context, you’re arguing against something I never said. I never said most abortions etc., and I never lied. You’d just like to believe I’m a liar because I believe something different than you, and you’d like anyone browsing through our little conversation to think you’re making some sort of point.

Just like you took my sentence “I never said I wasn’t racist.” And framed it as an admission of the guilt of racism, rather than responding to it in its actual context: I was pointing out that you were bringing up, in the post-previous to “I never said I wasn’t racist,” something completely off-topic.

See? It keeps coming back to this. You’re not really responding to my arguments. You’re concocting arguments I never made, sprinkling a keyword or two that I used in to disguise those fake arguments, and then pretending to be right by knocking down arguments I never made.

Again, that’s called a straw man argument.

I could point out how you’ve done that with each of the topics o presented: the Alzheimer’s patient comparison, the dismemberment point, etc. But since I’ve already repeated several of my previous arguments in an attempt to get you to address them, and you won’t, I won’t trouble myself to do it again this time.

You can read. You can scroll up and see, one reply above, all of the ways I combatted your original claims. You can choose to fight back, or you can keep shadowboxing.

I’ll just slide back to this. And until you can be an honest conversant, with opinions that she can back up with facts in direct response to what I actually said, I’ll be here, asking you this question:

Can you drop the points about who I am and actually debate the facts and points I very specifically bring up? Or do you concede my points?

Bitch, I’m not your fucking darling.

I did respond to ALL of your points. You don’t have rebuttals for my responses, which is why you did not respond to my other points.

A majority of abortions are medication abortions. That is a fact.

A majority of abortions also take place within the first trimester. That is another fact.

You arguing that "dismemberment” is a “common form of abortion” is also bullshit. Less than 1% of abortions take place in the third trimester, when the pregnancy is more than halfway over.

Since when is 1% a “common form of abortion?”

I’ll wait.

And like I said, most ‘late-term abortions’ occur because for medical reasons which are fetal anomalies, such as preeclampsia, placental abruption, membrane ruptures, etc. Situations like this are dangerous to the person who is pregnant, which us why pregnant patients who experience these situations choose to terminate.

Unless an unsuccessful pregnancy is one of those “inconveniences” you were talking about, your argument about “babies being butchered” was statistically false.

And yes, “I never said I wasn’t racist” is a stupid thing to say if you’re not a racist person. I didn’t hold a gun to your head. You typed that out, looked at it and said “Yeah, let me hit the Reblog button. This is solid.”

Once more, with feeling:

In. Context. The word “common” was used in the context of “this is a commonly known, multiply applied form of abortion.” Not the most common. Not one of the most common. Not the only. But common, as in, you should know about it. Now why would I need to say that? Because. In. Context. YOU said: “There are NO bodies being ripped apart.”

That’s what you said. So I responded to the actual words you typed. See how that works? “This is a common form of abortion.” As in, there’s not just ONE abortion that is performed this way (which is enough to prove your use of the words “NO BODIES” wrong) but there’s MORE THAN ONE abortion that is performed this way (which further emphasizes how wrong your “NO BODIES” statement is.)

And you did not respond to all my points.

‘Here you go. Again.

I said, in summary, “you’re wrong about PRC not caring about pregnant women. Here are the services they provide.” You said, in summary, “They provide services that other people provide, they’re not special!” I said, “just because another group provides the same services does not negate the fact that the services provided are evidence of caring. Meaning you are wrong. PRCs do care.”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeated your belief, without evidence, that PRCs don’t care because pro-lifers standing outside of clinics, blah blah blah.

You originally brought up (YOU) a black woman—specifically black—who had to walk to a state where Planned Parenthood would provide her with an abortion (which you implied was caring) while the state she lived in, Louisiana, would not (which you implied was uncaring.) I responded by saying, in summary, “Planned Parenthood is not a caring facility for the specifically black population you are bringing up: exhibit A, Margaret Sanger’s literal letter claiming she’s looking to wipe out “the Negros”, exhibit B, locations in areas with the highest concentration of minorities.” You responded, in summary “incorrect, because Planned Parenthood is in predominantly white neighborhoods.” I responded, “well, yes, because the majority of the population is white, so any neighborhood will be predominantly white—what I SAID was, areas with the highest concentration of minorities, within a predominantly white nation. So in conclusion, Planned Parenthood is not caring because it was founded on principles of racism and continues to kill off black people through abortion by targeting their neighborhoods for easiest access.”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You brought up how I’m racist, you brought up how Margaret Sanger had “problematic views,” but you never really brought any ideas together to combat the case I built for a (at the least) uncaring and (at the most) racist Planned Parenthood.

I said you were being disingenuous to call PRCs deceptive or manipulative by way of using their lack of HIPPA approval as evidence, because some PRCs do not offer services that would ever NEED HIPPA approval—those that do offer those services do have HIPPA approval.

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeated the disingenuous statement “most PRCs don’t have HIPPA approval!” Which is like saying, “Most Soup Kitchens don’t have HIPPA approval!” Of course they don’t. They don’t offer medical care or take medical information. And neither do any PRCs that don’t comply with HIPPA. And you know that. And you’re presenting the information disingenuously, anyway.

I said, in summary, “even paid adoption of a child is preferable to the murder of the child.” And you said, in summary, “paid adoption exists and that’s bad!!” And I replied, in summary, “yeah, it is bad, but it’s not as bad as murdering the child.” And you ‘replied,’ in summary, “PAID ADOPTION EXISTS AND THAT’S BAD”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeat yourself with a few of my own words mirrored back at me devoid of context or bearing.

Again, let’s be crystal clear. I have rebuttals for your “other points.” But unlike you, I don’t need to switch topics every two or three paragraphs when my original points are challenged—because you’re not challenging my original points, because you can’t, as you have demonstrated by not responding to them. Sure, I’ll rebut your faulty reasoning with the Alzheimer’s thought-exercise and I’ll sift through your red herrings about “pro-life zealots.”

Just as soooon as you respond to any of the points I made. Actually respond, directly to what I actually said—not what you think I said. Not what your preconceived notions of pro-lifers everywhere are. Not the straw-men you can knock down. Respond to what I actually said.

Because so far I’ve proven that:

• You’re wrong: Planned Parenthood doesn’t care about the black pregnant women (which you brought up) because their founder was racist and their practices and the results of those practices are disproportionately killing black people.
• You’re wrong: Pregnancy Resource Centers do care about pregnant women, and their children, as proven (proven, not seeking of adulation) by the often-free and HIPPA regulated medical procedures they provide—or the non-medical and therefore NOT HIPPA-REGULATION NECESSARY resources they provide—to pregnant women.
• You’re wrong: adoption as an industry is the lesser of two evils, with the greater evil being the murder of a child.
• You’re wrong: autonomy is nowhere used as a standard for the rights of a human being in our society, except within the womb, and that makes no sense.

Got any responses? Can you prove me wrong with facts? I’ll wait.

The definition of the word common does not change depending on conversation.

Common. Adjective. Meaning occurring, found or done often.

Apparently, 1% of all abortions taking place close to the end of a pregnancy is ‘common’ since 1% is more than one…

That’s your argument.

And I responded to your claim that Crisis Pregnancy Centers care about pregnant women. They don’t. Their objective is to pressure their patients to continue their pregnancy, by any means necessary, even if it means lying to them about their pregnancy or giving them faulty medical advice. Pregnancy Centers that care about patients don’t lie to them about the effectiveness of contraceptives, tell them abstinence-only education is the only way to be sexually safe, lie about abortion being linked to mental illness and breast cancer or tell patients that their ectopic pregnancy is perfectly viable.

Soup kitchens, which you keep comparing CPCs to, are not places where people go to for medical services. Those are not comparable to places which paint themselves as reputable in order to attract clientele who need real medical guidance.

And if Crisis Pregnancy Centers are reputable, explain to me why The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says that 71% of CPCs use deceptive means [to target people seeking information about abortion care] such as spreading thoroughly debunked misinformation and 38% do not clearly state that they do not provide abortion care on the homepages of their websites.

If an OBGYN lies to their patient about something related to their pregnancy, they will lose their license and never be allowed to practice again. Why are Crisis Pregnancy Centers not held to this standard, especially when they receive federal funding?

Why, if a Crisis Pregnancy Center’s goal is to care for pregnant people who come through their doors, do the two charities who control most CPCs in the Unites States have the "ultimate aim” of “sharing the love and truth of Jesus Christ in both word and deed.”

Being a ‘charitable Christian’ if you want, but don’t create alternatives to clinics that offer reproductive healthcare and act as if all you care about is helping pregnant people when your main goal relates to your religious beliefs.

Some CPCs are run by Jewish people, but most CPCs are run by Christian with the explicit goal of furthering Christianity - according to the people who control them.

And to that point, I have also never heard of a hospital, clinic or Planned Parenthood inquiring about other people’s religion on volunteer applications, which Crisis Pregnancy Centers have done. Again, if you are receiving money from the government - which does not platform any specific religion, and your main goal is to care for pregnant people, why is the religion of the volunteer remotely relevant?

Inquiring about the religious beliefs of your volunteers or employees, employing deceptive information, centering religion as the main goal for your existence are not behaviors that genuine medical entities - be it a clinic or a hospital, engage in, and with good reason.

Additionally, no place that cares about its users does not have to have politicians pass laws or ordinances requiring them to post disclaimers about their services, requiring them to be honest about what they do and don’t offer. I have never seen that for a hospital, a Planned Parenthood or even for an abortion clinic.

And my point about clinic escorts wasn’t “blah blah blah.” The point is that there are people whose job it is to protect patients from people harassing them, from people like you, harrassing them when going inside of actual clinics. It’s very convenient how you ignored that.

And since you care so much about context, let’s look at that Margaret B Sanger quote that ‘pro-lifers’ like you love to throw around.

“We don’t want word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.”

The quote is from a 1939 to one Clarence J. Gamble, M.D (a program director) in reference to the Negro Project, which was aimed at introducing birth control to black people in the southern region of the United States. Not abortion.

Had you done your research, you would know that the full quote is as follows.

“The minister’s work is also important to and he should be trained perhaps by the Federation as to out ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do no want word to out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out the idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

That is the context.

The quote is not saying that she wanted to exterminate black people. The quote is saying that she doesn’t want to be accused of doing that for offering birth control services to black people. Pro-lifers like you need to learn how to read.

And with regard to proximity, just because something is near you doesn’t mean that it’s meant for you personally. There are no advertisements for Planned Parenthoods specifically aimed at black people or events or festivities tailored towards the black demographic.

All you have is “Well, Planned Parenthood is near black people so they must be trying to wipe black people out.”

And you have to refute the fact that not all Planned Parenthoods offer abortion or the fact that abortion overall is a small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does, in terms of services for patients.

And when it comes to adoption, you keep moving the goal post. Before it was “Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative to murdering children.” Now it’s, “Adoption as an industry is the lesser of two evils, with the greater evil being the murder of a child.”

Good alternative or lesser of two evils.

Those two phrases carry different connotations.

Pick a lane and stick to it.

Like I said, it is not a woman’s job to birth babies so that someone else can have children. You’re not entitled to someone else’s reproductive labor.

Furthermore, autonomy is used as a standard in medicine, the legal system, etc.

If you rob a bank, you go to jail.

If you are a legal adult who can make their own medical decisions and you decide to get chemotherapy for a cancer diagnosis, that’s your choice.

If you buy insurance, you as an autonomous individual are responsible for paying for it.

In virtually every decision you make, you as a legal adult are autonomous. Pro-choicers’ point is that a woman’s autonomy is not suspended just because she’s pregnant.

Pro-lifers like you are comfortable violating other people’s autonomy because you think you’re entitled to use someone else’s body to produce children. Which is why you said “So be it.” earlier.

Even if a pregnant woman is in a coma and has to be put on life support, people like you are not above using her as an incubator to carry a pregnancy to term. Pro-choice people do not support things like that.

Also, your comparing a fetus to an Alzheimers patient who has been born was not sound. Being inside someone’s body for 9 months is not the same thing as needing a medical professional to take care of you or having a family member communicate with your caregivers on your behalf.

You’re absolutely right, the definition of the word “common” does not change depending on the conversation. But that which I am describing as common, in this conversation, was comparative. Comparative to what? Comparative to your words: “NO BODIES.” There over 600,000 abortions in the United States each year. Over 600,000. Well over. And guess what? 1% of 600,000 is roughly 6,000. I’m not claiming that “1%” is “common,” for everything, ever. Read carefully, now: I’m claiming that 6,000 abortions via dismemberment is “common” compared to “NO BODIES.” That’s the context. It’s much easier to lie to yourself when you ignore context. 

That’s my argument. 

Prettyvintageafternoon, sure, you’re responding “to my claim that Crisis Pregnancy Centers care about Pregnant women.” You’re just repeating that you don’t think they care. That’s not conceding or refuting; it’s just mirroring my words back at me, if you want to call that “responding.”

You’re not refuting or conceding to my counter-argument against the evidence you gave. You tried to give HIPPA-related reasons for why CPCs don’t care. I explained that that’s a terrible argument, because not all places need to have HIPPA regulations—only the ones that offer medical services. Not “places people go for medical services.” I can walk into a Burger King and ask for diamonds—but they don’t offer diamonds. soup kitchens don’t offer medical services, and some CPCs don’t offer medical services, regardless of who is walking in and requesting them. So those CPC  organizations that do not offer medical services (regardless of what a customer is “looking for” when they walk in) do not need HIPPA regulations. Those that do offer them DO meet HIPPA requirements. Please list the ones that don’t. Let e be clear—because you don’t seem to be able to focus on the words I’m using—please list the CPC centers which offer medical practices that should be meeting HIPPA standards based on the law, yet are not. I’m happy to have my mind changed by facts. 

Prettyvintageafternoon, The American a College of Obstetricians Gynecologists would make the same claims you are making, because they are aligned with the anti-scientific and anti-reason-based view that abortion is healthcare for a mother while also not being murder of a human. They are a pro-abortion organization, looking to discredit down pro-life organizations. Why in the world, if I don’t believe that they understand basic reasoning and biological standards enough to admit that abortion is murder, would I believe them about their enemies? Pretty terrible argument from authority. 

It is not deceptive to target any one group for the goods or services you provide. CPCs offer services to women in crisis, who are statistically likely to get an abortion. It’s in the name. Of course they’re doing that. Additionally, from an ethical point of view, they operate under the belief that abortion is not healthcare, but murder, so of course they’re targeting the women carrying potential victims of that murder. Be clear. It is not the targeting that is deceptive. 

What would be deceptive is if an organization claims to be offering “care” for their targeted group, and instead provides the opposite of care—like murder. Oh wait. That’s Planned Parenthood. 

Give me an instance of an OBGYN, operating in the capacity of an OBGYN, in a CPC, who lied to their patient and did not lose their license. Show me. Give me the proof. 

And now let’s get to one of your most off-the-wall “points” (not an argument) so far:

“Why, if a Crisis Pregnancy Center’s goal is to care for pregnant people who come through their doors, do the two charities who control most CPCs in the Unites States have the "ultimate aim” of “sharing the love and truth of Jesus Christ in both word and deed.”

So you’re saying that “sharing the love and truth of Jesus Christ in north word and deed” with pregnant people is not caring? That’s not a caring ultimate aim to have? Why, exactly? Explain that to me. A Christian believes that the most caring thing someone can do, bar none, is share the love and truth of Jesus Christ. How’s sharing that not caring? How does it negate the medical or service practices?

Who cares if the CPCs are Christians? Who cares if they ask for religious information on their volunteer applications? Why would that be a bad thing? Or, to stick more closely to the actual argument we’re having, in context—why would that be an uncaring thing? Because if it is not uncaring, your argument isn’t an argument, it’s just you stating arbitrary facts. 

By the way. Planned Parenthood also receives money from Medicaid—which is a government program. So what’s your argument here? That just because the government gives you money, they have a right to determine what’s relevant to put on volunteer applications? That any organization that receives money from the United States Government should have the same religious platform, which is none, as the government? Why? 

Here’s the fundamental difference between our point of view

and you’ll have to defend your side in it’s most basic terms, eventually, or you’ll never be able to logically argue against what I’m saying:

You believe that abortion is “reproductive healthcare,” and therefore, any denial to abortion is uncaring toward pregnant women. I, on the other hand, believe that abortion is not “reproductive healthcare;” instead, it is murder, and the violation of human rights, and therefore denial to abortion is caring toward both the mother and the unborn child, as well as fundamentally morally right.

Can you actually prove that abortion is “reproductive healthcare?” That it’s not the unjust ending of a valid human life and the violation of rights that life should qualify for? Not by appealing to the authority of organizations that take a political stance, but by facts of plain scientific and biological evidence? <—- This is what it’s all going to come back to.

Because if you can’t, then how do you know that CPCs are “employing deceptive information?” 

Oh and also,

You’re completely, horribly historically inaccurate and wrong when you claim that “centering religion as the main goal for your existence are not behaviors that ‘genuine medical entities - be it a clinic or a hospital, engage in, and with good reason.”

First off, your ignorance is really, really showing. The modern hospital, and the modern hospices, originated with Christians. So there’s that. 

The Benedictine Order established infirmaries in every monastery. After the 10th century, western public hospitals were funded by Christians just as much as city authorities and private benefactors. You have to just totally ignore the history of medicine, and indeed, biological, scientific discovery at large, in the west, to try and claim that medical entities which center religion as the main goal for their existences are not genuine. Which is what you’re doing. 

You’ve got another red herring, next.

I’m only ignoring your “there are people whose job it is to protect patients from people harassing them, from people like you, harassing them when going inside of actual clinics” claim because it has, like I said, nothing to do with anything we’re talking about. What’s your argument?

Are you arguing that all pro-life people harass patients walking into an abortion clinic? Are you arguing that abortion clinics care about their patients because they have employees willing to walk those patients into their clinic? Are you arguing that you have witnessed me, personally, harassing a patient on their way into a medical clinic? 

What do any of those claims have to do with what we’re talking about? What’s the context? How does that prove that CPCs do not care about pregnant black women? 

Finally, oh my goodness.

Can you settle on what you believe firmly and defend it consistently, please? One minute it’s “she had problematic views” and the next it’s “Margaret B Sanger’s quote is not saying she wanted to exterminate black people.” Do you seriously believe that Margaret B Sanger was not a racist? Are you seriously trying to argue that her work in eugenics, which was racist, was not in direct contact with her work in birth control, and her founding of Planned Parenthood? 

I’m having a hard time believing what I’m seeing. It is 2023, and Margaret Sanger still has some of us fooled. She’s still convinced some of us that she’s not offering black people poison—she’s offering black people healthcare. That was her manipulative strategy all along. You’re…you’re still listening to her. She’s dead, and you’re still believing the lie. I genuinely have never seen this before.

Let’s just move on from that, because…if you can’t read what she’s saying right there, and understand who she was and what she wanted for black people, I don’t think any amount of logic or rational thought can convince you. 

“And with regard to proximity, just because something is near you doesn’t mean that it’s meant for you personally.  There are no advertisements for Planned Parenthoods specifically aimed at black people or events or festivities tailored towards the black demographic.”

…Yes it does. Proximity does mean, in the case of businesses and organizations especially, that it is meant for you, if you are in a highly concentrated area of your own demographic. It’s called “proximity targeting.” Literally, that’s the term. They don’t have to run advertisements or events for black people when they’re within walking distance, and they want to distance themselves from their racist origins for PR. 

Let’s be clear. What I have is:

1. Clear statistics which I’ve already cited proving that black Americans are the most aborted race in the country.
2. Clear statistics that prove Planned Parenthood is setting up locations in minority-concentrated areas.
3. Clear history on the woman who started Planned Parenthood and her racist agenda. 

Sure, you’ve responded to my arguments. If by “responded” you count, “nuh-uh!” All you’ve basically said is, “no, you’re wrong!” Without explaining how I’m wrong. 

Saying proximity doesn’t equal targeting doesn’t make it so. You have to prove that it’s so. Or else you’re not arguing with me.

You claim Planned Parenthood only overs abortion as “a small percentage of what they do.”

Give me your source for Planned Parenthood offering abortion as “only a small percentage of what they do.” Or actually, even if you do, explain to me why I have to refute that? What does that have to do with Planned Parenthood allegedly caring for black pregnant women (which was the original point of this discussion?) 

Or are you trying to claim that abortion rates are not sufficient evidence to prove that black pregnant women are uncared for by Planned Parenthood? Why would you even have to make that argument, unless you’re admitting that abortion of a black fetus is the murder of a black child? What’s up, prettyvintageafternoon? Is this a Freudian slip, or another red herring?

I don’t move the goal post when it comes to adoption. The goal is: abortion is murder.

Therefore, “adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative to murdering children” is in the same lane as “adoption as an industry is the lesser of two evils, with the greater evil being the murder of the child.” Those two statements don’t contradict each other. They are parallel to one another. They do not stand in opposition with one another. Don’t know how many ways I can say that, because it’s surprising that it even needs to be explained. How do they disagree? It’s all the same lane. 

When the words “good alternative” by themselves are compared to the words “lesser of two evils,” sure, they look like they’re opposed. But when you give it—what’s that, ladies and gentlemen?—CONTEXT, they are not opposed at all. Let me fix it for you. Let me add the context back in. 

Good alternative TO MURDER or lesser of two evils.

Those two phrases carry different conno—oh no, wait. They don’t. That’s why I care about context. You should, too. I could very easily life any of your phrases out of context if I wanted to, but I don’t need to. Because that’s not real arguing, and it’s not how truth works. 

You’re back to straw men.

I never said:

“It’s a woman’s job to birth babies so that someone else can have children.”

That’s a straw man. I said, IF the only alternative to birthing babies and giving them up for adoption is murder, then yes, it is the woman’s job to give birth rather than to murder. If you’re going to argue, argue with me, not your shadow, please.

A woman’s autonomy is surrendered in quite a few scenarios pertaining to the rights of others, actually. Every time she wants to break the law and is stopped. She has the autonomous choice to strangle her six year-old, but that doesn’t mean that if a cop sees her doing it, they can’t stop her in the act. “Go ahead and keep strangling him, ma’am. I don’t want to take away your autonomous ability to make that decision.”

I’m not entitled to use someone else’s body to produce children. I’m entitled to stop someone else from murdering a child. That’s the difference in beliefs, here. Way to go, you highlighted it again. 

Finally, the Alzheimer’s patient example:

Similarities in the Comparison:

The Alzheiemer’s parent is dependent on an autonomous next-of kin to care for them.

The unborn is also dependent on an autonomous next-of-kin to care for them. 

The Alzheimer’s parent is living inside the property of their next-of-kin, and represents a drain on resources and comfort. 

The unborn is also living inside the property (the body) or their next-of-kin, and represents a drain on resources and comfort.

The Alzheimer’s parent cannot choose to leave their next-of-kin’s property and stop draining resources.

The unborn cannot choose to leave their next-of-kin’s property (the body) and stop draining resources.

The Alzheimer’s parent can sometimes be scary, difficult, and heartbreaking to live with.

The unborn can sometimes be scary, difficult, and heartbreaking to live with.

Differences in the Comparison:

The Alzheimer’s patient was allowed to live, and their rights entitled them to the protection of the law regardless of a lack of autonomy.

The unborn is murdered.

How’s that not sound?

It is only not sound if you can actually prove that a fetus is not a valid human life entitled to protection. And that’s the real issue here.

When you say that 'babies being ripped apart’ is a "common form of abortion,” the implication of that phrase is that this form of abortion makes up a large part of abortion procedures.

I brought up that 1% and mentioned the third trimester because that’s when the pregnancy is almost complete. An abortion procedure this late in a pregnancy is labor induction.

If you are referring to a dilation & evacuation abortion procedure (D&E), it’s very dishonest of you to argue that “babies are being ripped apart” because D&E procedures are ALSO done for medical reasons (a situation in which the pregnant person’s life is at risk), not just because the pregnant person wanted to terminate for the sake of “convenience.” You neglected to mention that.

You keep arguing that Crisis Pregnancy Centers (the ones with medical professionals) are regulated by HIPAA. HIPAA applies to healthcare providers and holds a standard of keeping patient information confidential. I want you to tell me how many of these Crisis Pregnancy Centers, since you insist that they are healthcare providers if they have a medical professional working in them, are regulated by HIPAA. Everywhere that I have looked says that CPCs are NOT regulated by this particular federal standard.

And even in cases where a medical professional is present in a Crisis Pregnancy Center, that doesn’t automatically mean that they are doing their job. A nurse - who is religious, actually volunteered with a CPC and found that the center was using expired disinfectant for transvaginal probe tools. The interesting part is that she was being supervised by a nurse manager when she saw this. Now, if a CPC that has medical professionals working in it is reputable, how can this center get away with something as serious as almost spreading HPV to patients? If a hospital did that, there would be consequences.

And there are also states, such as Kentucky, which have changed laws so that pregnancy centers themselves don’t have to be licensed, but they just have to have a licensed medical professional working there to be greenlit to legally offer medical services.

It’s one thing for a medical entity such as a hospital to be licensed and allowed to offer medical services to patients.

It is another for a center with volunteers who just so happen to have medical licenses (because of the nature of their job away from the center) to be allowed to offer medical services to patients.

That is an important difference.

Moving on to the conversation around religion, I did not say nor imply that it’s not okay for a medical professional to be religious or for a medical entity (such as a hospital) to be owned by a religious group. Even a hospital that is run by say…a Catholic group, has to center the patient FIRST before any religious belief (and by 'patient,’ I mean the pregnant person, not a fetus). That is not what we’re talking about here. What we ARE talking about are centers that you claim 'care’ about their patients and offer medical services based on that BUT are centering their religious beliefs in their main objective.

If I look up the mission statement of Saint Mary’s (a hospital not too far from me), I see no mention of God or even Christianity as a whole - even though the name of the hospital is a clear religious reference.

That is not the case when I research who owns most Crisis Pregnancy Centers in the US. When your main goal states centers YOUR religious belief and not the care for the PATIENT, that is a problem. You can be as religious as you want in your free time but the minute you report for duty, your religious beliefs no longer matter in terms of what the patient needs. All that matters is the patient. Period.

Now, let’s tackle that comment about “authority.” When I do research about something, I’m going to ask the people who know the most about that thing. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is a professional association of obstetricians and gynecologists, doctors who deal with childbirth and reproductive health. Yes, those guys know more about pregnancy than you, me, and everyone on this website. Of course I am going to pull information from them.

You don’t get to label actual organizations full of medical professionals, for which board certification is required for membership, as anti-science just because you don’t like what they have to say. Their goal is not to discredit anti-abortion groups, despite how you feel about them. Their goal is to improve the lives of people who need medical help with obstetrics and gynecological care.

I also want to touch on this next point.

You also keep using the term 'murder’ to describe abortion. Murder involves malicious intent for a reason. Someone taking abortion medication, because they wish to terminate their pregnancy, is not a baby killer. You may not agree with abortion morally, which is your right, but someone terminating their own pregnancy (especially early on in the gestational process) is not being malicious. An OB/GYN, who may provide an abortion for their patient, is also needed for people to carry successful pregnancies to term. So no, I cannot give you an instance of an OB/GYN working in a CPC BECAUSE most obstetrician-gynecologists do not support the dishonest way in which CPCs operate. They are literally leaving and/or declining to work in abortion-prohibitive states.

“What would be deceptive is if an organization claims to be offering “care” for their targeted group, and instead provides the opposite of care—like murder. Oh wait. That’s Planned Parenthood." 

I know you thought you were clever with that one. If I walk into a Planned Parenthood and tell them I’m pregnant and that I want an abortion, they’re either going to say "We can help you with that…” or refer me to someone who can. If I walked into a Crisis Pregnancy Center and did the same thing, I am going to likely receive brochures with religious messaging and a bunch of reasons why I shouldn’t get an abortion - which may or may not be true. The standard of care is completely different.

Also, Planned Parenthood receives Medicaid for NON-ABORTION services such as birth control, family planning, annual exams, prenatal/maternity care, breast and cervical cancer screenings, and STD testing and treatment. In accordance with rules around how Medicaid funds can be spent, PP cannot legally use taxpayer funds to finance abortions except in very specific cases. And guess what? They don’t have to pressure their patients to make certain reproductive decisions, unlike many Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

The reason why I brought up clinic escorts is because pro-lifers pretend that they care about pregnant people, but are perfectly fine harassing people as they walk into places such as Planned Parenthood facilities when they don’t even know WHY that patient is there. Many pro-lifers assume anyone going to Planned Parenthood is getting an abortion and immediately start yelling at them. Not only is that none of your business, but people who care about pregnant women don’t do that.

Next, your point about Margaret B Sanger. You being emotional and upset that you cannot prove she created Planned Parenthood to target black people - using her words might I add, is a you problem. Yes, Margaret B Sanger had problematic beliefs about eugenics. HOWEVER, the quote that you used to try and argue that she was trying to exterminate black people (which wasn’t true) was missing vital context - something I thought you cared about. The fact that you still say I’m “fooled” because you can’t back up the point that YOU made shows that you don’t give a damn about facts.

Sanger did and supported things that were both positive and negative. I do not venerate her, nor do I feel the need to lie about her, what she did, or what she believed.

Birth control also isn’t poison. Next?

Despite you reducing black women down to being breeders for our race, it is up to each and every black woman whether she wants to take birth control or not or if she gets an abortion. If I don’t want something from Planned Parenthood, I don’t go there - even if there is one near me. That’s the case for most black women when it comes to Planned Parenthood, whether you like it or not. If a black woman is pregnant and she decides to terminate her pregnancy, and she gets abortion medication through Planned Parenthood that SHE wanted, that is abortion CARE. Planned Parenthood listened to their patient and they did their job.

Not all black women want to be mothers or have another child. It is what it is.

Also, I looked up proximity targeting and it seemed to refer to using cellphone technology to ping users when they are near businesses. I don’t see anything about proximity targeting meaning “I am close to you therefore I am meant for you personally.”

As someone who actually has studied advertising, businesses typically target users with campaigns - which can include TV ads, billboards, etc. Until I see an event from Planned Parenthood saying “Hey black people, come here for an abortion!” you cannot factually prove to me that Planned Parenthood is targeting women who look like me for that specific service based on my race. All you have seems to be your belief on that subject.

Planned Parenthood, in terms of the amount of services they provide by percentage, has a whopping total of abortion services coming in at…3%.

Now, let’s utilize some critical thinking there.

If Planned Parenthood’s main goal is to exterminate the black population, according to pro-lifers like you, it’s very interesting that abortion makes up such a small amount of their services. I would think that if an organization wants me gone that they would be a lot more aggressive.

Onto your argument about adoption, when you take away abortion as an option away from a pregnant and place adoption as an alternative, despite what that pregnant person wants, you are treating that pregnant person’s body as a way to produce a baby for someone who wants one. No woman owes you or anyone else a child just because she is pregnant. Pregnant people don’t owe you anything.

No, abortion is not comparable to strangling a six-year-old. Again, you keep comparing a fetus to children and Alzheimer’s patients - both of which have been born.

No, an Alzheimer’s patient living in a retirement home is not the same as a fetus needing a woman’s body for 9 months. The next-of-kin does not experience a risk to their body when they are making medical decisions for a family member with a debilitating disease. They DO experience risk to their body when people like you force them to carry a pregnancy to term against their will. That’s not just “scary, difficult, and threatening to deal with.” That is life-threatening.

If this is your thought exercise, you’re obviously not thinking.

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White supremacy is not just burning crosses on people’s lawn. It’s non-black people thinking they have paternal ownership over black people and their bodies, which is what you are doing.

This entire idea that ‘pro-lifers’ like you have made up in your head about “saving the black race” because you think it’s your place to intervene in black women’s medical decisions is exactly why the anti-abortion movement is trash. Black women are already the most likely to die in childbirth in the United States - particularly in anti-abortion states, and you think that you’re saving us by criminalizing abortion?

Please leave black women’s wombs alone.

You are not helping us.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful to provide more pregnancy medical resources to African American women so they don’t have to die in childbirth, rather than encouraging them to kill their own children?

I-

…

The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.

Most of you are conservatives who don’t even want to pay taxes. But pro-lifers care about spending time and money to provide medical resources to pregnant women?

Please.

Politicians who are elected by people who think like you don’t even want to talk about maternal mortality with regard to black women. For example, Louisiana is one of the worst states in the entire country for maternal mortality, and Senator Bill Cassidy - a Republican ‘pro-lifer" who represents this state, essentially said that if you ‘adjust for race’ then their maternal mortality rates aren’t that bad.

If you are pro-life and that state that you are paid to represent has some of the worst maternal mortality rates for a particular group of women and you choose to disregard that, you’re in no position to make medical decisions for that group.

Period.

And then there are the cases where black women’s doctors can’t even provide care because of people like you. There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New York for an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.

The fetus inside of her did not have a brain or a skull. It was not going to survive.

Any time a doctor responsible for their black patient is too scared to do their job because they fear fanatics like you throwing them in prison, that’s a problem.

So no. You anti-abortion psychos have had more than enough time - in the half a century that you have spent trying overturn legal protections for women’s medical privacy, to provide medical resources for marginalized women.

You people did not do that.

You people have spent all your time and energy crafting anti-abortion laws to incarcerate women (because the anti-abortion movement loves punishment), threatening medical professionals with jail time or removal of their hard-earned certifications, yelling at people outside of Planned Parenthood locations when you don’t know why they are there, calling women whores for having sex lives you don’t agree with and just sticking your nose in other people’s business.

Black women did not call you and say “Bestie, please make it possible to arrest me for murder if I get an abortion. 🤪”

You want to be a “savior for the black race” without doing any substantive work.

Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.

Here we go again! If you want to keep telling people who they can and can’t argue with and what they can and can’t talk about (quoting you: “Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.”) you can go ahead and do that. Doesn’t mean we have to obey you. 

What you’re saying is simply not true. First off:

“The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.”

You really shouldn’t use phrases like “at all” when you’re trying to argue facts. Because that’s absolutely not true. In 2019 alone, pregnancy resource centers served two million pregnant women. They provide holistic resources as well as donations. They offer pregnancy tests, STD testing, ultrasounds, housing, and educational resources as well as assistance applying for Medicaid, WICs and SNAPS.

There are more than 70,000 PRC workers in this nation alone, 12% of whom are working on a non-paid, volunteer basis to provide care for pregnant women, and more than 10,000 of them are licensed medical professionals. 

And if good will and volunteer work are not proof enough for you, millions of dollars are spent toward providing resources to pregnant women. 

Those resources are just not “kill the baby.” 

So you’re very wrong. While some anti-abortion-claiming people might not care about providing resources, you can’t say all anti-abortion people don’t care. 

“There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New Yorkfor an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.”

I’ll bet Nancy Davis did have to go to New York for an abortion. Because according to New York City Health Department reports, there are thousands more specifically black babies aborted in that city alone than there are born—and that’s been the case for years. 

Couple that with your Planned Parenthood name drop? You must not realize this, or you wouldn’t be mentioning it—Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was one of the most vile racists in our country’s history. You want to talk about white supremacy and trying to control others? This is a quote from her, to a friend in a letter in December of 1939: 

“We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” 

She was actively trying to manipulate African-American pastors into arguing for eugenics that would contribute to the murder of their children from the pulpit. Margaret Sanger even wrote a book called “‘The Pivot of Civilization” where she  argued for the weeding out of “unfit” people groups—which she specifically defined as anyone poor, sick, disabled, or in a minority. 

Abortion, in this country, does not have it’s roots in helping black people. It has it’s roots in killing black people off, one baby at a time, and selling it to them as “health care.” 

In reality, across the world, including in pro-life countries like Poland or in Chile, every time pro-life laws are passed, maternal mortality drops. There is a solid correlation between the two. 

But this all comes back to the last issue we discussed, and that is this—

The fact that Margaret Sanger was a racist trying to commit genocide against black people and used the invention of Planned Parenthood abortion clinics to do it; the fact that the black population in America remains low while the percentage of black children that are murdered is skyrocketing; the fact that abortion clinics specifically and disproportionately are established within walking distance of communities with higher populations of minorities; ALL OF THESE FACTS point to racism when you realize that, (no matter what you believe about the fetus’ validity as a life) the black population is shrinking in America. And it is doing so because you’re aborting your children, because they’re targeting you. You’re buying the propaganda telling you that killing your children is healthcare.

It isn’t. It’s murder. It’s murder, tending toward genocide. 

Only 0.15% of all abortions performed in America can be considered necessary to save the life of the mother. Let me state that again: less than 1% of all the children murdered are murdered to save the life of the mother.

You can’t claim “we people” don’t care about pregnant women when we’re the ones offering aid, begging black women to stop allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the money hungry business of abortion-providers, and engaging in debates like this on the Internet with actual facts. I mean, you can claim that. You’d just be incorrect. Like you were above.

Here’s the other thing, @prettyvintageafternoon. Human life has intrinsic worth and value from conception because God (Yahweh, of the Bible) assigns that worth and value to us. That same God cares infinitely more about you, about pregnant women, about black people, than I ever could. And He’s the only one who can both administer justice to the innocent, and redeem the guilty. He heals the hurt and restores the broken. So if you, yourself, are living as the lord and master over your own life, I’m not ashamed to beg you: please stop. Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as Lord of your life. He’ll make you new. Just like He’s going to make all of this division and mess new, eventually. 

My God.

“…Doesn’t mean we have to obey you.”

You are so arrogant, it’s ridiculous. You think black people are just things for you to save, when we didn’t even ask for your presence.

Again, black women did not ask for you to take away our bodily autonomy. You just feel the need to do that so you can be savior.

All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.

The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.

(Source)

The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.

The anti-abortion is not here to serve people.

And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.

The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.

(Source)

So no, abortion clinics are not coming for black people. They’re not posting ads telling black people (or anybody else for that matter), “Hey, you need an abortion!” That’s a lie that white people like you choose to believe so you can feel needed.

And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.

And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.

Which of us is telling the other how she thinks, how she feels, and generalizing both motives and actions based on limited information? Which of us is making character assumptions based on a total lack of personal knowledge? You don’t know anything about me except what I just said–that I have beliefs about abortion and a worldview that is different than yours, and yet you are assuming my race, my opinion of you, and my innermost motivations.

But I’m the one who’s being controlling? @prettyvintageafternoon , you are the one assuming and generalizing and refusing to do your own “research.”

But I’m not here to get into a name-calling battle with you.

“All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.”

Let’s just skip right over the fact that I never said I was special for providing an ultrasound. Because you’re right, “licensed medical professionals” (by which I’ll assume, based on tonal argument, that you mean “licensed medical professionals who DO NOT work for PRCs,” because I just said that 12% of PRC workers are licensed medical professionals) don’t always pay themselves on the back for providing services. No. Instead, they get paid. And most PRC workers are volunteers.

Secondly, not all non-PRC licensed medical professionals offer all of the services I just described. Because not all of them are licensed to do all of the separate tasks I just described.

And ALL OF your above paragraph is not only taking my words in a different direction, but it’s besides the point. You made a truth claim: that anti-abortion people do not care about pregnant women “at all.” I disproved that truth claim BY SAYING that if anti-abortion organizations did not care, there would not be PRCs offering the aforementioned services. I answered your truth claim. You’re trying to swerve off-topic by accusing PRC workers/me of “patting ourselves on the back” and feeling “special for providing an ultrasound.” In reality, none of that has any bearing on what we’re talking about, so let’s get back to the point.

“The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.”

What “real clinics?” Abortion clinics? Here we get down to it–for some reason, you get to decide which medical licenses professionals are “real?” If they’re not providing abortions, they’re not providing care? Or are you saying “real clinics” comparatively? Because there are more than one kind of Pregnancy Resource Center. Some are medically licensed as an establishment, and some are no more medically licensed than a soup kitchen and therefore would be held to different standards based on services offered.

Where’s your source for the “purposeful lies to get pregnant women in the door?” Where’s your source for supposed “false aid?”

As far as Google itself as a source, you do realize that Google is a corporation? Google is not an objective fact-presenting platform. It is a business. Therefore just because Google “flags” something does not mean that I should take their word as reflective of objective fact and absolute truth. I mean, not even university professors asking for sources cited on academic papers will accept Google’s “flagging” as a reliable source, in most instances.

But that doesn’t even matter. Again, it’s not a problem worth addressing. PRCs were brought up as en example of care offered by anti-abortion people, a group you were erroneously stating “does not care about pregnant women at all.” I’m just pointing out that your counterpoints are not only off-topic, but poorly supported.

“The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.”

This is very untrue in several senses. 1) You have no idea whether or not every anti-abortion supporter knows your proposed fact, “that they don’t have to abide by HIPPA regulations.” You have no idea of that. You’re just assuming a whole group of people’s motives and intent without any source to back it up.

2) This is an incredibly disingenuous, misleading way to phrase your point. You make it sound like all PRCS offer health services (by using the vague word “serve”) which are not regulated by HIPPA. But in actuality, ONLY PRCs that do not ever claim to offer medical services directly do not need to be regulated by HIPPA…just like a baseball team wouldn’t need to be regulated by HIPPA. Because a baseball team is not, nor DID IT EVER CLAIM TO BE, staffed by licensed medical professionals. The fact that some PRCS do have licensed medical professionals working for them means that those practitioners are absolutely regulated by both HIPPA and state legislature. So, sure, some PRCs aren’t regulated by HIPPA, but they’re the ones that wouldn’t need to be, because they’re not offering health care any more than a soup kitchen is, and they never claimed to be.

“And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.“

It doesn’t matter how big or red a font you use–you better stop speaking for all black people. Not all black women know who Margaret Sanger is. I didn’t. My friends didn’t. My classmates didn’t. Saying that black women already know these facts is an outright lie. It might be more accurate to say you already knew that, sure.

Secondly, I absolutely do not see all black women as “breeders of your race.” You’re the one who read that into what I was actually saying, which is simply logical: without mothers, there is no continuation of any living organism. That is fact. That is reality. But the word “breeders” which I never said, which YOU assumed, adds a connotation to it that makes it sound like I’m limiting, comparing, or reducing the black woman to a specimen of animal needed to continue the species. That was absolutely not the point of what I said, and you 100% know it. You’re rephrasing what I say and outright twisting the words to lie and assume my motive.

I didn’t say black women were breeders. I said that black children are being murdered disproportionately to their birth rate. I said that Margaret Sanger was specifically targeting the black community to exterminate them and founded Planned Parenthood to do it. In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist. You sure are arguing with a person who isn’t even there. You sure are projecting a debate opponent from your imagination onto me, because none of what I’ve said has provided proof of your truth claims about what I am or what I believe or even what I claim.

And guess what else? Nobody’s arguing to “take away your reproductive decisions” here, in this debate between me and you. I am arguing to take away your state-given ability to murder another human being. And no amount of you re-phrasing or twisting my words can make the issue any more or any less about that.

Margaret Sanger was a racist and her racist work is not only thriving, it’s celebrated. That’s a fact. That’s quantifiable by current and historical data. It is truth; I don’t have to use it for anything. It just is.

“The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.“

It doesn’t show how I see all black people. It shows how I see the decisions made by SOME black people, and it shows how effective the historical founders of eugenics’ methods were.

Because actually, not all black people think the way you do. And it’s pretty revealing of you, yourself, that you, again, think you can speak for all black people AND assume my intentions and character at the same time. You’re the one relegating all black people to believing the same thing as yourself.

Additionally, I said “she was actively TRYING to manipulate black ministers.” I did not make any comment on whether or not she succeeded.

You sure are projecting a debate opponent who isn’t actually here onto me. You sure are arguing against points I never made. Why are you doing that?

“Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.”

This is, again, disingenuous and misleading, either of you or of the source you’re citing. Because the truth is, only 13.6% of the country is made up of black people. In fact, to include other ethnicities, here’s the government census:

White people make up more than half of the total U.S. population. So of course any abortion clinic that is within walking distance of a community with high amounts of ethnic-minority population is ALSO going to be located “in neighborhoods that are mostly white.” Because everything’s “mostly white,” according to our national census percentages. Even the highest concentrations of minorities will still be outnumbered by whites in most communities. That doesn’t change the fact that abortion clinics are within walking distance of minority-heavy communities.

So again, sure, what you’re saying SOUNDS like abortion clinics aren’t being racist. But when you look at the whole picture and don’t completely ignore their historical origins to boot, they definitely are racist.

Here’s a source for that. I DID do my research. Listen, the racism of the abortion industry, especially Planned Parenthood, is a well-documented fact. It is undeniable. I’m happy to argue that point from several other directions, because there’s no shortage of proof.

“And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.“

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are better than abortion is one truth claim.

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are justified in collecting a profit because they are an alternative to abortion is ANOTHER, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TRUTH CLAIM THAT I NEVER MADE.

I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry. But the context of our discussion on this thread was “care,” which is arguably more noticeable when money is not a consideration in the conduct of the care-giver, so I brought that up as a compare-contrast. Again, you’re trying to assault my character, motive, and even assign me a race in order to discount my arguments without doing the work of actually counter-arguing.

So miss me with that nonsense.

“And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

“Proselytizing” carries the connotation of a crusader forcing someone to pretend to believe something at sword point, or a charlatan manipulating someone with false promises. I’m doing neither. I can’t force you to believe something, and I can’t trick you into faith. That’s not how it works, and I never claimed it was.

If you mean, “Christians can’t help giving testimony,” then yeah, no, we can’t. Acts 4:20: “for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

If you were walking towards a land mine with no way of knowing it was there, but I had been warned about the land mine beforehand and saw you about to die, I would do the same thing I’m doing now: I’d tell you what I knew. You’re saying I should just let you walk toward the land mine, shrug my shoulders, and say, “hey, it’s no business of mine what they believes about the ground they walk on.”

No. I won’t. And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing. What nonsense.

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

You’re very, very wrong about this. In more ways than one. First off, “people like me?” Like who? Like Christian’s? Like white people?

What makes you think I’m white? You don’t know my race. You could claim to because I don’t agree with certain things, but that’s wouldn’t be evidence of anything but your own profiling.

But that’s not as important at all as what you believe about the God of the Bible’s connection to slavery.

Yes, many slave traders in U.S. history tried to use the God of the Bible to enslave black people (and other ethnicities.) But guess what? The lead abolitionists used the God of the Bible to abolish slavery, too. Know why?

Because the Bible and the God of the Bible DO NOT condone the American slave trade. Christianity is not a white man’s religion. It’s earliest non-Jewish origins can be traced to this day back to Ethiopia and Asian Antioch. Christianity was in Africa well before the American slave trade was.

You know good and well that just because one group of people uses a particular creed to justify their actions, that does not mean that the creed itself has anything to do with their actions. Not unless the creed LINES UP with those actions. And Biblical Christianity does not line up with the brutal enslavement and degradation of the black community throughout American history.

Get to know the actual God I worship instead of the fallible people claiming to worship Him.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

Yes–you are valuable–but you DO need to be made new. He already paid the ultimate price for you.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.“

You sure can make “reproductive” decisions without me, or white people, or whoever you’re referencing, present. But no, I won’t leave anybody alone who is actively advocating for murder. And as long as murder is the decision you’re making, I’ll speak out against it.

This whole conversation is not about you.

You keep centering yourself, your opinions and your wanting to be a savior in other people’s medical care when they did not ask for you. Do not whine to me about your character.

”…You better stop speaking for all black people.“

What exactly do you think you’ve been doing this entire time?

My entire point, since you choose to be willfully ignorant, is that black women can make their own medical decisions - including to have an abortion or not, without you. It’s so simple that even you can understand it.

And yes, when you make the argument that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population, you are arguing that people within the black population who can give birth - black women, need to breed to maintain their race’s numbers.

Your desire to avoid the racist implications of your beliefs is not my problem.

But then again, you pretty much admit that you are racist.

“In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”

Thank you for admitting your own lack of character. You did my work for me.

“I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry.”

Thank you for admitting that too. You are so intellectually lazy that you will pose adoption as an abortion alternative and then you choose not to care about the fact that they survive off using poor women’s babies as product, despite you literally saying that you know how screwed up the adoption industry is when we were talking.

And yes, you WERE proselytizing.

“Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as the Lord of your life.”

I don’t recall asking you for a sermon. You keep trying to drag me into your religion UNPROVOKED when it had NOTHING to do with the conversation. You’re not saving me from a land mine. You’re actively trying to convert me to your religion when I did not ask you to do so.

“And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing.”

Here you go! You keep making this conversation about you and your feelings.

And then you bring up abolitionists when that has nothing to do with my point. It does not matter if Christianity isn’t only practiced by white people. People used your religion to enslave people who look like me.

That is a fact.

I do not care about other people’s decision to be Christian. That is their right.

MY POINT is that I am not interested in joining your religion. You can keep it.

“Yes – you are valuable – but you DO need to be made new.”

Notice the use of the word ‘need.’

You see how you keep using authoritative language to try and pull me into a religion that I am not interested in joining? That falls under proselytizing, which is attempting to convert.

“But no, I won’t leave anyone alone who is actively advocating for murder.”

So you acknowledge that black women did not ask for your presence and you still choose to be in our reproductive business?

Just say yes so that we can be done.

Okay, @prettyvintageafternoon, all of that about my religion, my proselytization, my “willful ignorance,” and how I’m making this personal is an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

Now, can you actually answer any of my counter arguments? If you want to stop talking about me, can I suggest that you start with literally…any of the non-me-focused counterarguments I made? The points I made about multiple PRC types? The points I made about adoption agencies as an alternative to abortion being a separate truth claim than their justification (since you mentioned it…again…as if I didn’t just re-address it?) The points I made about the multi-ethnic divisions of population proportions? The points I made about your validation method for “care” or “service” to pregnant women?

Any of those? No?

The only points of mine that you’ve quasi-addressed are the ones that relate to my defense of my own character, or lack thereof (like when I said “I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”)

You’re still actively twisting what I’ve said about murdered black children to mean that I am somehow racist. You’re ignoring anything I have to say that directly refutes your claims about abortion or anti-abortion advocates.

Case in point: I never made the argument “that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population.” I made the argument that abortion clinics don’t care about the black population because they’re killing black children at a higher rate than they’re being born, intentionally, through abortion–and I made that point as a compare/contrast to PRCS, to specifically refute your claim about which party actually cares about pregnant women.

But you took that point and only addressed it in order to make it about whether or not I’m racist. So again–you gonna answer my actual arguments?

As for the only question you’ve actually asked me: yeah, big time, I’ve BEEN acknowledging that black women didn’t ask for me to get involved in this issue. You knew that; don’t know why you think me staying it over and over will make me “be done.”

Because, the thing is, when one person is advocating for murdering another person, (doesn’t matter what gender or race) the right thing to do is for any third parties (me) knowledgeable of the event to do something or say something about it.

So I’m not done. You can be if you feel like it; it’s a free website and, as I said, you really stopped arguing with what I was actually saying a while ago and just started attacking straw men.

Oh, and I guess, if your definition of proselytizing is “making any truth claims about others or the state of the world,” then sure, I was proselytizing. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, you did choose to make this whole conversation personal. You trying to pretend that you’re logical after trying to shove your religion down my throat for the past couple days every time you had an opportunity speaks to your lack of character. You weren’t speaking any kind of truth. You were attempting to convert me when that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Plain and simple.

And yes,

“I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

Those were your words and they represent you very well. I didn’t tell you to type that. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Onto the matter of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, you listed a bunch of services that they offer to women as a form of care. I responded by reminding you that doctors already provide those services. MY POINT is that Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not do anything that medical professionals don’t already do for their patients, so you using the afformentioned services as a way to say PRCs care about pregnant women doesn’t mean much of anything. AND you acknowledged that most of these places are run by volunteers - meaning they don’t have to abide by federal regulations when serving people. That’s a huge problem because pregnancy is a medical situation for the person who is pregnant.

Then you acted like abortion clinics being ‘within walking distance’ of minorities is proof of racism, as if they are forcing people of certain races to use their services. I told you that most abortion clinics are in majority white communities, which is true. Doesn’t matter if white people are a majority of Americans or not. Abortion clinics are not telling black people they need to get abortions, whether you like it or not.

A black woman can get an abortion.

A black woman can have kids.

A black woman can do both of those things if she wants.

That’s not up to me.

All I care about is her choices being available to her.

My overarching point - the reason why I’ve been going back and forth with you, is that what a black woman chooses to do regarding her own reproduction is none of your business or anybody else’s.

Nobody twisted what you said. Your argument had a racist implication and I responded to it.

If race wasn’t relevant to begin with, you wouldn’t have brought up all that crap about Margaret B. Sanger or abortion being ‘sold to black people as healthcare’ in the first place.

You’re just restating your former points, not addressing the new ones I made. I told you, NOT all doctors provide the same services as PRCs. Sure, maybe both can provide ultrasounds, but no, both do not provide things like housing, baby care supplies, counseling, etc. You’re also…still ignoring the fact that I addressed your claim about volunteers and how they actually do have to abide by federal regulations when offering medical services. You’re also still ignoring what I actually said about adoption and it’s alleged ‘‘justification.’

 And you’re just restating your point about white neighborhoods, AND restating my counter argument involving percentages without addressing how that argument actually applies. 

I’ll counter, again, the only thing you said which actually tried to answer me: “Doesn’t matter if the majority of the population is white or not.” Actually, yes, it does, in the context of where abortion clinics choose to establish themselves and whether or not they’re purposely targeting black people to sell their services to. It is not an accident that they look for the highest concentration of minorities in majority-white neighborhoods. That is a direct connection to the other fact: that the highest percentage of children killed in an abortion clinic in this country are black. Factor that in with Planned Parenthoid’s racist origins, and you’d have to be sticking your head in the sand not to see the racist implications. Not because I view the women of color as breeding stock. Because abortion clinics treat them as breeding stock. That is my argument. You’re the one who made it about me, because you couldn’t refute my actual points.

I’ll say it again, to give you opportunity to respond: You started making a distinction about black people when it comes to abortion, not me. You started making truth claims about which party cares about pregnant women. Within the context that you started this with, which was black people and parties that care about pregnant women, I brought up Margaret Sanger. Because she is relevant. You introduced:

A) The idea that anti-abortion parties don’t care about women

B) The example of a black woman having to go across states to get an abortion, wherein abortion was represented as a type of care in contrast to the alleged “‘lack of care” that anti-abortion parties have

C) Planned Parenthood, who provided that alleged care when anti-abortion parties, such as the Louisiana leaders, wouldn’t.

When you introduced A, B, and C, I followed right on track with the same topics. You began this debate as if race were a factor. I just picked up where you left off. And you continue to make most of your argument about whether or not I’m racist, and re-stating your points as if mine were not countering them, as if all you need to do is repeat yourself. 

Finally, you continue to dodge counters to your supporting arguments and return to make your “overarching point:” that what a black woman (again, you’re the one who made that distinction in the first place) does with her own reproduction is her business and so me and anyone who doesn’t like it should shut up and mind our own businesses.

But I’m not arguing with your overarching point. Because sure , when you say “reproductive rights,” that phrase, sociologically and scientifically can mean a few different choices that I wouldn’t want to have any control over or say in, such as: whether or not a woman decides to conceive a baby. That’s her business. How many babies a woman wants to conceive; that’s her business. How she raises or determines her own future in relation to children or sex life; that’s her business.

But abortion is not part of her reproductive rights, because abortion is murder of a separate human. Abortion is stepping outside of the realm of “what happens the the single human body of the woman” and into a realm where two humans are being affected. One, against its will—the innocent, entirely helpless baby who never asked to allegedly “impose” on the mother by existing in the first place. But it’s not that baby who is protected and offered choices once it does exist. It is the woman who is given the choice to murder. 

And that’s when it becomes my business. 

Glad you dropped the Bible verses and the BS claim about me “attacking” your character.

Yes, if you choose to bring up the black population specifically then the people within that population who can give birth - women with my skin color, are a part of the conversation. We’ve been over this.

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion deates and then want to ignore the women of that race and their experiences.

You trying to act like PRCs care about pregnant people for providing counseling or housing when there are actual counselors with training and experience and housing that can be obtained through governmental services (which most pro-lifers literally vote against because most of them are conservatives who despise welfare and social programs - as well as paying the taxes to pay for those things) is not unique.

Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.

Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.

You pressuring or forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of what they want when they’re the one who’s pregnant, is treating them as breeding stock. For someone who’s so obsessed with abortion clinics, because you think they’re targeting minorities, you’re no better than they are.

The fact that you chose to pivot to Margaret B Sanger when I was talking about a particular black woman who was negatively impacted because of anti-abortion policy shows how easily you disregard minorities when it’s convenient. And no, the harm that was done to her was not “alleged.” She publicly told everyone about her entire experience, and she has a right to be upset.

You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights. Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.

Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent. Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is. Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. Simple.

You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.

When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice. If they want to kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

I don’t know how I missed this. But wow. I literally had to double-check and make sure that this reblog was in response to me, because of how blatantly and insistently you keep changing what I have said AND what you, yourself, have said. 

I mean, you might as well be arguing with a completely different user who had entirely different arguments than mine. Let’s review. 

This is you. Bringing up “black women,” first, in the very first post of this whole thread. 

Again, let me say it as clearly as possible: you started the conversation. And you made it about black women. Like I said, HERE:

Then, somehow, you still manage to try and argue this:

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion debates and then want to ignore women of that race and their experiences. 

What are you doing? What are you talking about? @prettyvintageafternoon , can you see this? Can you see that you are the one who brought up race, and then called me a racist, and are now acting like I’m the one who brought it up? 

“Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.”

Again, what are you talking about? Who asked them to kiss my feet? You already tried this. You already said PRCs “expect a pat on the back,” and I already said, “nobody’s asking for that.” We’ve done this already. For the final time:

YOU claimed that PRCs do not care. I refuted that with examples of services that they offer. And you are somehow claiming that just because they’re offering services that others offer, that negates it as proof of their care. That’s like saying, “the soup kitchen in the South does not care about homeless people, because you can buy soup at the store.” 

But we’ve already been through this. Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. Can you hear me? Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. What I am saying is that you cannot prove your original claim, which is that they don’t care. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. 

“Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing, or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.”

Seriously, @prettyvintageafternoon, can you actually follow any of what I’m actually saying, or are you just going to keep arguing against someone who isn’t here? Someone you made up? 

prettyvintageafternoon. Margaret B Sanger IS the proof that Planned Parenthood is targeting people to walk inside. That was not a pivot. THAT was my proof that black people are being targeted. That, and the clinic’s location in relation to the disproportionate minority populations. 

That was my response to you talking about a particular black woman. It was totally in the natural flow of your argument: YOU brought up that she was black, and that abortion was care that she was receiving, and withholding it was harmful. I responded by saying, “no, Planned Parenthood is not caring for black people like the one you’re talking about, because it is very demonstrably targeting black people, and here are two proofs of how.” 

Now this is getting so repetitive and nonsensical. You have done nothing but repeat yourself or argue with a straw man. For the final time, if you actually want to stand up for what you believe in, and against what I’m actually saying, then stand up against what I’m ACTUALLY saying. Can you respond to these counter arguments—these counter arguments, right here—or not?

• There are more than one type of Pregnancy Resource Center, and all of the ones that offer medical services which qualify for complying with HIPPA, DO comply with HIPPA. So you lied. 
• Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative only to murdering children. 
• When the biggest percentage of a population is white, then no matter where an abortion clinic is set up, it will be in a “predominantly white” area—but that does not mean that it is not also in the largest concentrations of minorities. That is what “minority” means. Therefore: Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate amount of clinics within walking distance to minority-concentrated neighborhoods, indicating racial targeting. 
• Christianity was in Ethiopia long before the slave-traders who claimed to be Christians.

Can you, or can’t you, actually refute what I actually said? Because if you can’t, then everyone reading this is not seeing you stand up for what you believe in. They are seeing you repeat yourself, dodge the counterarguments, and hide behind straw men. 

While you’re doing that, I’ll actually be responding to the new truth claims you brought up. 

“You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights.  Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.”

This is silly. You don’t get to decide that reproductive rights include any of the things you just listed—most importantly, killing the child. Good job, you summarized the debate topic. So now what?

“Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent.  Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is.  Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent.  Simple.”

How in the world can you omnisciently claim that every pregnant woman is also an innocent woman? What are you talking about? Innocent of what, exactly? Sex? You’re making an argument I’m not making. I never posited that sex was a punishable offense, and that the punishment must always be letting a child live. 

Children are not punishments. Innocence is not in reference to the absence or presence of sex. And for the record, the fault of rape is the rapists. Not the pregnant woman’s—and not the baby’s resulting from the rape. 

I can claim that any and all fetuses are innocent because it has made zero choices. It can’t. It is, by definition, dependent and defenseless. But you don’t get to claim that about pregnant women everywhere—because they all make choices, and you have absolutely zero way of knowing if those choices were good, bad, right, wrong, criminal, etc., universally. 

So what you’re doing here—let’s be so clear—what you’re doing here is believing a narrative that every woman who walks into an abortion clinic with the intent to murder has never made a morally wrong or criminal decision—AND you are implying that this means they can murder children—AND you are implying that children are a punishment that a woman who must carry a child to term is subjected to unjustly. That’s exactly what you’re doing, just to be clear. 

You’re absolutely right: no THING should get to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. But guess what. A baby is not a “THING” like a tumor or a wart or a cyst. A baby is a human being. And by being a human being, it has rights. And those rights are “you don’t get to kill me, just because my existence is dependent on you, or because your situation is tragic.”

How’s that for simple?

“You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.”

So be it. Me telling someone that they can’t cut their five year-old toddler apart with a knife, whether they like it or not, whether I know their medical history or how that five year-old toddler is affecting their health, would probably also be imposing. But that’s how justice and right and wrong work. If you want to murder, just people are going to impose upon you not to do it. That’s the argument here. You wanna argue against that? 

“When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice.  If they want to kick you out, you gotta go.  If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.”

This is the most tired, broke, sad reasoning I’ve ever seen. And it’s just lazy. 

You’re telling me, first of all, that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?

Really? 

Autonomy is defined as “the ability to make an informed, uncoerced decision,” or, in terms of personal sustainability, someone who does not need someone else’s resources to survive.

So I’ll ask you again. Is that what you really believe? That humans have to meet those requirements, or else their bodies are at the disposal of anyone who does meet those standards? I.E. A pregnant woman can think and make decisions on her own, and can, to some extent, feed and care for herself, therefore she should be allowed to murder a child in the fetus stage who can’t do any of those things?

So how about the woman who’s on SNAP? She’s dependent on the United States Food Stamp Program to supply her with sustenance. She’s not autonomous. She’s dependent. Can the United States rip her apart as soon as she becomes inconvenient? Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all. 

Oh, or are you just talking about bodily? Well, how about the person diagnosed with Alzheimer’s? They are not autonomous. They are dependent on someone else for everything—they can’t even make informed decisions, because information disappears from their minds. Should their caretakers, family members, doctors, rip them apart and murder them? No? Why not? They’re not autonomous. Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

How about if that Alzheimer’s patient was living in their son’s house? Then they got sick with Alzheimer’s and literally couldn’t make the choice to move out, because they can’t remember where they are or what they’re supposed to be doing. No way to make an independent choice for their own safety. You’re arguing that the son should say, “if I wanna kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.” …and you’re arguing, furthermore, that the son should not just “kick the Alzheimer’s parent out,” but has every right to grab a machete and start hacking that Alzheimer’s parent to pieces, or poison them, then suck the body parts out of their house. After all, bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

How about a three year-old child? Too young to understand sex, dependent on adults to feed and clothe and care for them. Should those adults get to do whatever they want with that kid?  Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

All you really mean is, anyone who can be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman (I.e. a child who cannot speak up for or defend itself, or even choose to flee the womb) should be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman. 

That’s what you’re saying. Is that what you genuinely want to be saying? Assuming you even respond to what I actually said.

First of all, if you’re talking about reproduction in within the black population then yes, black women are automatically included in the conversation. How you thought otherwise is beyond me.

Second, if you’re going to bitch and moan about being called a racist, you need to look at the words that you used.

“I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

…Yes, those were your words. If you’re racist, at least be woman enough to say you are and stop acting indignant when other people call you out on it.

Third, yes - I did respond and say that Crisis Pregnancy Centers are not unique for offering services that can be obtained at other places. Furthermore, most Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not follow HIPPA. That’s a fact. And even the ones who do follow HIPPA are pretty questionable, apparently, since a woman had to get one of her fallopian tubes removed after being told that her ectopic pregnancy was viable not too long ago. The main point of a Crisis Pregnancy Center is to pressure women to continue their pregnancies by any means necessary, regardless of any risk to the person who is pregnant.

Any time you are so desperate to pressure others to continue their pregnancy that you set up shoddy alternatives to actual clinics and give people faulty medical advice, you cannot claim that you are acting in the best interest of that patient. Period. And before you ask, “faulty medical advice” includes the following (and yes, CPCs have done these).

• Incorrectly reading ultrasounds
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of mental health problems
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of breast cancer
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of infertility
• Offering abstinence-only education

It’s one thing to offer services to pregnant women. If they take them, that’s up to them. It’s another to intentionally place yourself near abortion clinics to lure people, posture yourself as medical alternative and then tell them things that are not scientifically true and/or tell them things about their pregnancy which are not true, which can put their life at risk.

On the subject of adoption, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. If someone is going to adopt a kid, someone else has to carry a pregnancy to term successfully for that to be possible. I don’t care how many women have infertility issues or how many have had miscarriages, it is not the responsibility of an individual to pop out babies so that someone else can have their pick of the litter and choose which child they want to add to their “perfect family.” Someone who is viably fertile and pregnant doesn’t owe you anything. If someone wants a kid, they can pay or adopt a baby. You do not get to treat someone as a free or affordable breeder because you are desperate for a child. End of story.

In response to your argument about Planned Parenthood targeting minorities, being within walking distance =/= targeting someone. Aside from the fact that most Planned Parenthood locations are in majority white neighborhoods and the fact that not all Planned Parenthood locations even offer abortion as a service, being within walking distance of someone does not mean you’re targeting them. If I’m hungry and I want a salad, I can drive right past the McDonald’s nearest to me, go to WalMart and buy my desired vegetables. If someone wants an abortion, they’re going to go to someone who offers that service. That’s literally why women leave states that aren’t abortion-prohibitive to get to places that offer abortion (like Nancy Davis did, whose story you easily disregarded because it wasn’t convenient for your narrative).

Also, Margaret B Sanger did not create Planned Parenthood to target black Americans. Planned Parenthood did not even start offering abortion until after Roe v Wade. She did create birth control clinics and popularized the term “birth control.” Abortion has existed long before her, and despite any problematic opinions that she may have held, anti-abortion zealots like you acting like she’s the boogeyman of the black community in order to justify stripping black people who reproduce of their reproductive rights is laughable.

People want the services that they want. That’s something that “pro-lifers” like you have never understood with regard to conversations about abortion-access. You, a non-black person consistently arguing that abortion is “SoLd tO bLaCk pEoPle As HeAlThCare” literally shows how comfortable you feel infantilizing minorities.

Black people, black woman included, do not need you to ‘save us’ or ‘protect us’ from our own reproductive decisions. We can make our own choices, different though they may be depending on which black person you speak to. People in the anti-abortion movement have been using us as an anti-abortion talking point for years, despite a majority of black people not voting for anti-abortion politicians (most of which are conservative), supporting reproductive justice organizations and campaigns (which do include abortion access), etc.

On the subject of Christianity, you bringing up Ethiopia does not dismiss the history of Christians using their religion as a means to justify enslavement or treating black people as less than them. It does not take away from Christians giving versions of the Bible to enslaved people and cutting out stories like Moses’ in order to discourage rebellion. It does not take away from Christian slave owners using their religion to teach slaves to be obedient to them as Christians are to their God. Christianity has played a huge role in the mistreatment of black people within the confines of American history. You, trying to proselytize to me earlier on this conversation and lecture me with your religious beliefs (which had nothing to do with the conversation) does not change any of that.

“Children are not punishments.”

Tell that to the person that you see in the mirror, along with every single anti-abortion advocate who tells women to close their legs, during any abortion-related conversation. You people use forced pregnancy as a means to punish people who have sex constantly. You “pro-lifers” are notorious for that.

If children weren’t punishments to “pro-lifers” like you, you wouldn’t force other people to have them.

Next, your argument about “innocence.” Pro-lifers like you bellyache about “innocent babies being slaughtered” - especially when standing outside places that you think offer abortion, to emotionally manipulate and pressure someone who is pregnant into carrying that pregnancy to term. Y'all are the same people who take photos of people walking into clinics, shout at them, etc. It’s the reason why a lot of places that offer abortion have clinic escorts because people who think like you like to harass patients.

Yes, I did say that pregnant women are also innocent. Unless having sex inside of wedlock or outside of it is suddenly a crime, yes - the pregnant person is innocent.

You saying “the rape is fault of the rapist” is a strawman. I didn’t argue otherwise and neither has any other pro-choice advocate. If someone is forcibly impregnated against their will and they decide to keep their pregnancy, that is their choice. They are well within their rights to do that. Anti-abortion zealots like you forcing a victim of sexual assault to carry a pregnancy to term, if they do not want to, is punishing them for being assaulted.

“You’re telling me that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?”

Yes.

That’s how that works. Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand.

Someone who uses a governmental service is not…comparable to a fetus. They’ve already been born and they can remove themselves from that governmental program. That is not remotely the same thing as using someone’s body for 9 months (best case scenario) in order to stay alive.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

A three year old child has also already been born. Killing a three year old is murder - actual murder, not just what anti-abortion weirdos like you call murder. It’s legal murder, which involves the presence of premeditated malice. A woman who gets an abortion is not a murderer. A woman who stabs a 3 year old in the chest very much is. Easy difference to understand, for the rest of us who have functioning braincells.

Comparing a fetus to various racial groups, alzherimers patients, actual children is not the argument that you think it is. It actually makes you look intellectually lazy, which I expect from you at this point.

No “human being” gets to use someone’s body to sap nutrients from or grow against that person’s will. If you want to treat fetuses like everybody else, fine. We will hold them to the same standard.

Also, most abortions are medication abortions and most abortions happen within the first trimster. You arguing that “BaBiEs ArE bEiNg RiPpEd ApArT” is not only not factual, it’s also emotionally manipulative. There are no bodies being ripped apart.

Overall, my beliefs are the following.

1. People are entitled to make their own reproductive decisions, which includes abortion
2. Black people are not the horse on which the anti-abortion movement gets to ride on to justify forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term
3. Nobody owes someone else a kid to adopt just because they’re viably fertile or pregnant
4. If you, especially as a non-black person, support forcing a black person to carry a pregnancy to term because you think they need to breed to maintain their racial population, you are racist. Black people, black women in particular, are not breeders to fulfill any type of racial quota.

@prettyvintageafternoon

…You either have no capability of following an argument, or, you know you cannot refute my claims, so you’re ignoring them in favor of repeating yourself.

I gave you a list of my points for you to respond to, in plain English. Nice and neat, in one place. And did you respond? Nope.

You used some of the words in that list of points to pretend like you were addressing them, but actually, you just went back over what you’ve already said. Or, you began arguing against something that I never said. Which is the definition of a straw man argument.

Look. If you can’t understand what I’m saying, that’s one thing. But if you can’t refute what I’m actually saying, the words that are actually written down, why waste time repeating yourself? I’m certainly not going to. I’ve done that enough, here, and you either can’t read what I’m saying, or you don’t want to address it. That’s clear. I’m willing to bet you just don’t want to address it. That’s what your repeated "pivot” to calling me racist, assuming my race, and other red herrings and straw men seem to indicate.

But here’s something I’ll ask in plain English, in response to your claim, and just leave it open-ended. Then we’ll see if you can finally directly respond, or if you’ll just keep doing what you’ve been doing. At least the people who bother to read this will be able to see who can reason and argue, and who can’t.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

No, prettyvintageafternoon. NOT like “everyone else.” For some reason, even though you just admitted that an Alzheimer’s patient, like a fetus, has no ability to make their own decisions, and is dependent on their next of kin, like a fetus–they don’t get to have “various legal protections.” They’re torn apart in the womb because they’re inconvenient, burdensome, and/or scary to the woman carrying them.

it’s literally the same scenario. The differences are, an Alzheimer’s patient is near to the end of their life at the time that they cannot make their own decisions. A fetus, if they weren’t aborted, would be at the beginning of theirs. You’re literally proving my point. There is no philosophical, ethical, or reasonable difference between an Alzheimer’s-afflicted parent dependent on their next of kin and a fetus dependent on their mother. Except that we allow and encourage the murder of one, by the millions, and protect the other.

And yes. Bodies are being ripped apart in abortions. Arms. Legs. It is literally a common form of abortion. It’s not the only one, and some states have outlawed it, but it’s one of them. When a child in the womb has reached a certain stage of development, they have to dismember it through the use of forceps in order to remove all traces of the pregnancy from the mother–have you ever actually studied abortion? Your ignorance is showing.

First of all, I have responded to everything you said. Your logic is not sound enough to come up with a rebuttal. That is your problem.

"I never claimed not to be racist.”

Your words. If you don’t like being called racist, don’t type sentences with a double negatives implying that you are. And don’t use minorities as an anti-abortion talking point because you think that we’re too stupid to make our own reproductive decisions without your input.

Does every black woman choose to get an abortion? No. Does every black woman choose to have children? No. Does any of that have to do with you, as someone who is not them? Absolutely not.

A black person getting abortion or choosing to have kids is their choice. Not yours.

Now, onto your bullshit argument about comparing fetuses to Alzheimer’s patients.

An Alzheimers patient is not a fetus.

The fact that “pro-lifers” like you have to compare fetuses to living, breathing people in order to make an argument proves that you cannot argue honestly.

An Alzheimer’s patient has already been born, and because of that and the fact that they cannot make their own decisions, their next-of-kin is the one who speaks with their doctor and caregivers and/or takes care of them by themself.

So no, someone’s body is comparable to a retirement home or special medical care facility. Caring for an older person who has been born is not comparable to carrying a pregnancy to term for 9 months, which has risk for the person who is pregnant.

Also, not all Alzheimers patients are older. Most are, but not all.

You keep using words like “inconvenient” and “burdensome” in the context of pregnancy because it’s easier for you to imply that pregnancy is an easy, passive process rather than something that physically damages the pregnant person’s body and carries medical risk.

And you lied. A majority of abortions are medication abortions (using mifepristone and misopristol) and a majority of abortions take place within the first trimester - before arms and legs are formed. Most late-term take place due to medical reasons, primarily when the pregnancy is no longer viable. Nobody is waiting until the day before they go into labor to shrug and say “I don’t want this pregnancy anymore. Let me go get an abortion” - despite what people like you want to believe.

If you want to argue about stripping bodily autonomy from another person, I suggest you do so honestly or stop bitching.

Darling, you have not been able to actually respond–as in, refute or concede my point–to one point I have made. Not one. You’ve simply repeated your own points, while mirroring a few of the new words I use back at me. It’s a way to look like you’re responding, but is easily seen through by anyone reading.

For example. Right now, you are using the words "arms and legs,” to pretend you’re responding to my point about dismemberment. But actually, in context, you’re arguing against something I never said. I never said most abortions etc., and I never lied. You’d just like to believe I’m a liar because I believe something different than you, and you’d like anyone browsing through our little conversation to think you’re making some sort of point.

Just like you took my sentence “I never said I wasn’t racist.” And framed it as an admission of the guilt of racism, rather than responding to it in its actual context: I was pointing out that you were bringing up, in the post-previous to “I never said I wasn’t racist,” something completely off-topic.

See? It keeps coming back to this. You’re not really responding to my arguments. You’re concocting arguments I never made, sprinkling a keyword or two that I used in to disguise those fake arguments, and then pretending to be right by knocking down arguments I never made.

Again, that’s called a straw man argument.

I could point out how you’ve done that with each of the topics o presented: the Alzheimer’s patient comparison, the dismemberment point, etc. But since I’ve already repeated several of my previous arguments in an attempt to get you to address them, and you won’t, I won’t trouble myself to do it again this time.

You can read. You can scroll up and see, one reply above, all of the ways I combatted your original claims. You can choose to fight back, or you can keep shadowboxing.

I’ll just slide back to this. And until you can be an honest conversant, with opinions that she can back up with facts in direct response to what I actually said, I’ll be here, asking you this question:

Can you drop the points about who I am and actually debate the facts and points I very specifically bring up? Or do you concede my points?

Bitch, I’m not your fucking darling.

I did respond to ALL of your points. You don’t have rebuttals for my responses, which is why you did not respond to my other points.

A majority of abortions are medication abortions. That is a fact.

A majority of abortions also take place within the first trimester. That is another fact.

You arguing that "dismemberment” is a “common form of abortion” is also bullshit. Less than 1% of abortions take place in the third trimester, when the pregnancy is more than halfway over.

Since when is 1% a “common form of abortion?”

I’ll wait.

And like I said, most ‘late-term abortions’ occur because for medical reasons which are fetal anomalies, such as preeclampsia, placental abruption, membrane ruptures, etc. Situations like this are dangerous to the person who is pregnant, which us why pregnant patients who experience these situations choose to terminate.

Unless an unsuccessful pregnancy is one of those “inconveniences” you were talking about, your argument about “babies being butchered” was statistically false.

And yes, “I never said I wasn’t racist” is a stupid thing to say if you’re not a racist person. I didn’t hold a gun to your head. You typed that out, looked at it and said “Yeah, let me hit the Reblog button. This is solid.”

Once more, with feeling:

In. Context. The word “common” was used in the context of “this is a commonly known, multiply applied form of abortion.” Not the most common. Not one of the most common. Not the only. But common, as in, you should know about it. Now why would I need to say that? Because. In. Context. YOU said: “There are NO bodies being ripped apart.”

That’s what you said. So I responded to the actual words you typed. See how that works? “This is a common form of abortion.” As in, there’s not just ONE abortion that is performed this way (which is enough to prove your use of the words “NO BODIES” wrong) but there’s MORE THAN ONE abortion that is performed this way (which further emphasizes how wrong your “NO BODIES” statement is.)

And you did not respond to all my points.

‘Here you go. Again.

I said, in summary, “you’re wrong about PRC not caring about pregnant women. Here are the services they provide.” You said, in summary, “They provide services that other people provide, they’re not special!” I said, “just because another group provides the same services does not negate the fact that the services provided are evidence of caring. Meaning you are wrong. PRCs do care.”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeated your belief, without evidence, that PRCs don’t care because pro-lifers standing outside of clinics, blah blah blah.

You originally brought up (YOU) a black woman—specifically black—who had to walk to a state where Planned Parenthood would provide her with an abortion (which you implied was caring) while the state she lived in, Louisiana, would not (which you implied was uncaring.) I responded by saying, in summary, “Planned Parenthood is not a caring facility for the specifically black population you are bringing up: exhibit A, Margaret Sanger’s literal letter claiming she’s looking to wipe out “the Negros”, exhibit B, locations in areas with the highest concentration of minorities.” You responded, in summary “incorrect, because Planned Parenthood is in predominantly white neighborhoods.” I responded, “well, yes, because the majority of the population is white, so any neighborhood will be predominantly white—what I SAID was, areas with the highest concentration of minorities, within a predominantly white nation. So in conclusion, Planned Parenthood is not caring because it was founded on principles of racism and continues to kill off black people through abortion by targeting their neighborhoods for easiest access.”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You brought up how I’m racist, you brought up how Margaret Sanger had “problematic views,” but you never really brought any ideas together to combat the case I built for a (at the least) uncaring and (at the most) racist Planned Parenthood.

I said you were being disingenuous to call PRCs deceptive or manipulative by way of using their lack of HIPPA approval as evidence, because some PRCs do not offer services that would ever NEED HIPPA approval—those that do offer those services do have HIPPA approval.

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeated the disingenuous statement “most PRCs don’t have HIPPA approval!” Which is like saying, “Most Soup Kitchens don’t have HIPPA approval!” Of course they don’t. They don’t offer medical care or take medical information. And neither do any PRCs that don’t comply with HIPPA. And you know that. And you’re presenting the information disingenuously, anyway.

I said, in summary, “even paid adoption of a child is preferable to the murder of the child.” And you said, in summary, “paid adoption exists and that’s bad!!” And I replied, in summary, “yeah, it is bad, but it’s not as bad as murdering the child.” And you ‘replied,’ in summary, “PAID ADOPTION EXISTS AND THAT’S BAD”

You never responded (refuted with evidence or conceded) to that. You just repeat yourself with a few of my own words mirrored back at me devoid of context or bearing.

Again, let’s be crystal clear. I have rebuttals for your “other points.” But unlike you, I don’t need to switch topics every two or three paragraphs when my original points are challenged—because you’re not challenging my original points, because you can’t, as you have demonstrated by not responding to them. Sure, I’ll rebut your faulty reasoning with the Alzheimer’s thought-exercise and I’ll sift through your red herrings about “pro-life zealots.”

Just as soooon as you respond to any of the points I made. Actually respond, directly to what I actually said—not what you think I said. Not what your preconceived notions of pro-lifers everywhere are. Not the straw-men you can knock down. Respond to what I actually said.

Because so far I’ve proven that:

• You’re wrong: Planned Parenthood doesn’t care about the black pregnant women (which you brought up) because their founder was racist and their practices and the results of those practices are disproportionately killing black people.
• You’re wrong: Pregnancy Resource Centers do care about pregnant women, and their children, as proven (proven, not seeking of adulation) by the often-free and HIPPA regulated medical procedures they provide—or the non-medical and therefore NOT HIPPA-REGULATION NECESSARY resources they provide—to pregnant women.
• You’re wrong: adoption as an industry is the lesser of two evils, with the greater evil being the murder of a child.
• You’re wrong: autonomy is nowhere used as a standard for the rights of a human being in our society, except within the womb, and that makes no sense.

Got any responses? Can you prove me wrong with facts? I’ll wait.

The definition of the word common does not change depending on conversation.

Common. Adjective. Meaning occurring, found or done often.

Apparently, 1% of all abortions taking place close to the end of a pregnancy is ‘common’ since 1% is more than one…

That’s your argument.

And I responded to your claim that Crisis Pregnancy Centers care about pregnant women. They don’t. Their objective is to pressure their patients to continue their pregnancy, by any means necessary, even if it means lying to them about their pregnancy or giving them faulty medical advice. Pregnancy Centers that care about patients don’t lie to them about the effectiveness of contraceptives, tell them abstinence-only education is the only way to be sexually safe, lie about abortion being linked to mental illness and breast cancer or tell patients that their ectopic pregnancy is perfectly viable.

Soup kitchens, which you keep comparing CPCs to, are not places where people go to for medical services. Those are not comparable to places which paint themselves as reputable in order to attract clientele who need real medical guidance.

And if Crisis Pregnancy Centers are reputable, explain to me why The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says that 71% of CPCs use deceptive means [to target people seeking information about abortion care] such as spreading thoroughly debunked misinformation and 38% do not clearly state that they do not provide abortion care on the homepages of their websites.

If an OBGYN lies to their patient about something related to their pregnancy, they will lose their license and never be allowed to practice again. Why are Crisis Pregnancy Centers not held to this standard, especially when they receive federal funding?

Why, if a Crisis Pregnancy Center’s goal is to care for pregnant people who come through their doors, do the two charities who control most CPCs in the Unites States have the "ultimate aim” of “sharing the love and truth of Jesus Christ in both word and deed.”

Being a 'charitable Christian’ if you want, but don’t create alternatives to clinics that offer reproductive healthcare and act as if all you care about is helping pregnant people when your main goal relates to your religious beliefs.

Some CPCs are run by Jewish people, but most CPCs are run by Christian with the explicit goal of furthering Christianity - according to the people who control them.

And to that point, I have also never heard of a hospital, clinic or Planned Parenthood inquiring about other people’s religion on volunteer applications, which Crisis Pregnancy Centers have done. Again, if you are receiving money from the government - which does not platform any specific religion, and your main goal is to care for pregnant people, why is the religion of the volunteer remotely relevant?

Inquiring about the religious beliefs of your volunteers or employees, employing deceptive information, centering religion as the main goal for your existence are not behaviors that genuine medical entities - be it a clinic or a hospital, engage in, and with good reason.

Additionally, no place that cares about its users does not have to have politicians pass laws or ordinances requiring them to post disclaimers about their services, requiring them to be honest about what they do and don’t offer. I have never seen that for a hospital, a Planned Parenthood or even for an abortion clinic.

And my point about clinic escorts wasn’t “blah blah blah.” The point is that there are people whose job it is to protect patients from people harassing them, from people like you, harrassing them when going inside of actual clinics. It’s very convenient how you ignored that.

And since you care so much about context, let’s look at that Margaret B Sanger quote that 'pro-lifers’ like you love to throw around.

“We don’t want word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.”

The quote is from a 1939 to one Clarence J. Gamble, M.D (a program director) in reference to the Negro Project, which was aimed at introducing birth control to black people in the southern region of the United States. Not abortion.

Had you done your research, you would know that the full quote is as follows.

“The minister’s work is also important to and he should be trained perhaps by the Federation as to out ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do no want word to out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out the idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

That is the context.

The quote is not saying that she wanted to exterminate black people. The quote is saying that she doesn’t want to be accused of doing that for offering birth control services to black people. Pro-lifers like you need to learn how to read.

And with regard to proximity, just because something is near you doesn’t mean that it’s meant for you personally. There are no advertisements for Planned Parenthoods specifically aimed at black people or events or festivities tailored towards the black demographic.

All you have is “Well, Planned Parenthood is near black people so they must be trying to wipe black people out.”

And you have to refute the fact that not all Planned Parenthoods offer abortion or the fact that abortion overall is a small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does, in terms of services for patients.

And when it comes to adoption, you keep moving the goal post. Before it was “Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative to murdering children.” Now it’s, “Adoption as an industry is the lesser of two evils, with the greater evil being the murder of a child.”

Good alternative or lesser of two evils.

Those two phrases carry different connotations.

Pick a lane and stick to it.

Like I said, it is not a woman’s job to birth babies so that someone else can have children. You’re not entitled to someone else’s reproductive labor.

Furthermore, autonomy is used as a standard in medicine, the legal system, etc.

If you rob a bank, you go to jail.

If you are a legal adult who can make their own medical decisions and you decide to get chemotherapy for a cancer diagnosis, that’s your choice.

If you buy insurance, you as an autonomous individual are responsible for paying for it.

In virtually every decision you make, you as a legal adult are autonomous. Pro-choicers’ point is that a woman’s autonomy is not suspended just because she’s pregnant.

Pro-lifers like you are comfortable violating other people’s autonomy because you think you’re entitled to use someone else’s body to produce children. Which is why you said “So be it.” earlier.

Even if a pregnant woman is in a coma and has to be put on life support, people like you are not above using her as an incubator to carry a pregnancy to term. Pro-choice people do not support things like that.

Also, your comparing a fetus to an Alzheimers patient who has been born was not sound. Being inside someone’s body for 9 months is not the same thing as needing a medical professional to take care of you or having a family member communicate with your caregivers on your behalf.

artist-issues:

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eternal-echoes:

prettyvintageafternoon:

White supremacy is not just burning crosses on people’s lawn. It’s non-black people thinking they have paternal ownership over black people and their bodies, which is what you are doing.

This entire idea that ‘pro-lifers’ like you have made up in your head about “saving the black race” because you think it’s your place to intervene in black women’s medical decisions is exactly why the anti-abortion movement is trash. Black women are already the most likely to die in childbirth in the United States - particularly in anti-abortion states, and you think that you’re saving us by criminalizing abortion?

Please leave black women’s wombs alone.

You are not helping us.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful to provide more pregnancy medical resources to African American women so they don’t have to die in childbirth, rather than encouraging them to kill their own children?

I-

…

The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.

Most of you are conservatives who don’t even want to pay taxes. But pro-lifers care about spending time and money to provide medical resources to pregnant women?

Please.

Politicians who are elected by people who think like you don’t even want to talk about maternal mortality with regard to black women. For example, Louisiana is one of the worst states in the entire country for maternal mortality, and Senator Bill Cassidy - a Republican ‘pro-lifer" who represents this state, essentially said that if you ‘adjust for race’ then their maternal mortality rates aren’t that bad.

If you are pro-life and that state that you are paid to represent has some of the worst maternal mortality rates for a particular group of women and you choose to disregard that, you’re in no position to make medical decisions for that group.

Period.

And then there are the cases where black women’s doctors can’t even provide care because of people like you. There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New York for an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.

The fetus inside of her did not have a brain or a skull. It was not going to survive.

Any time a doctor responsible for their black patient is too scared to do their job because they fear fanatics like you throwing them in prison, that’s a problem.

So no. You anti-abortion psychos have had more than enough time - in the half a century that you have spent trying overturn legal protections for women’s medical privacy, to provide medical resources for marginalized women.

You people did not do that.

You people have spent all your time and energy crafting anti-abortion laws to incarcerate women (because the anti-abortion movement loves punishment), threatening medical professionals with jail time or removal of their hard-earned certifications, yelling at people outside of Planned Parenthood locations when you don’t know why they are there, calling women whores for having sex lives you don’t agree with and just sticking your nose in other people’s business.

Black women did not call you and say “Bestie, please make it possible to arrest me for murder if I get an abortion. 🤪”

You want to be a “savior for the black race” without doing any substantive work.

Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.

Here we go again! If you want to keep telling people who they can and can’t argue with and what they can and can’t talk about (quoting you: “Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.”) you can go ahead and do that. Doesn’t mean we have to obey you. 

What you’re saying is simply not true. First off:

“The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.”

You really shouldn’t use phrases like “at all” when you’re trying to argue facts. Because that’s absolutely not true. In 2019 alone, pregnancy resource centers served two million pregnant women. They provide holistic resources as well as donations. They offer pregnancy tests, STD testing, ultrasounds, housing, and educational resources as well as assistance applying for Medicaid, WICs and SNAPS.

There are more than 70,000 PRC workers in this nation alone, 12% of whom are working on a non-paid, volunteer basis to provide care for pregnant women, and more than 10,000 of them are licensed medical professionals. 

And if good will and volunteer work are not proof enough for you, millions of dollars are spent toward providing resources to pregnant women. 

Those resources are just not “kill the baby.” 

So you’re very wrong. While some anti-abortion-claiming people might not care about providing resources, you can’t say all anti-abortion people don’t care. 

“There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New Yorkfor an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.”

I’ll bet Nancy Davis did have to go to New York for an abortion. Because according to New York City Health Department reports, there are thousands more specifically black babies aborted in that city alone than there are born—and that’s been the case for years. 

Couple that with your Planned Parenthood name drop? You must not realize this, or you wouldn’t be mentioning it—Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was one of the most vile racists in our country’s history. You want to talk about white supremacy and trying to control others? This is a quote from her, to a friend in a letter in December of 1939: 

“We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” 

She was actively trying to manipulate African-American pastors into arguing for eugenics that would contribute to the murder of their children from the pulpit. Margaret Sanger even wrote a book called “‘The Pivot of Civilization” where she  argued for the weeding out of “unfit” people groups—which she specifically defined as anyone poor, sick, disabled, or in a minority. 

Abortion, in this country, does not have it’s roots in helping black people. It has it’s roots in killing black people off, one baby at a time, and selling it to them as “health care.” 

In reality, across the world, including in pro-life countries like Poland or in Chile, every time pro-life laws are passed, maternal mortality drops. There is a solid correlation between the two. 

But this all comes back to the last issue we discussed, and that is this—

The fact that Margaret Sanger was a racist trying to commit genocide against black people and used the invention of Planned Parenthood abortion clinics to do it; the fact that the black population in America remains low while the percentage of black children that are murdered is skyrocketing; the fact that abortion clinics specifically and disproportionately are established within walking distance of communities with higher populations of minorities; ALL OF THESE FACTS point to racism when you realize that, (no matter what you believe about the fetus’ validity as a life) the black population is shrinking in America. And it is doing so because you’re aborting your children, because they’re targeting you. You’re buying the propaganda telling you that killing your children is healthcare.

It isn’t. It’s murder. It’s murder, tending toward genocide. 

Only 0.15% of all abortions performed in America can be considered necessary to save the life of the mother. Let me state that again: less than 1% of all the children murdered are murdered to save the life of the mother.

You can’t claim “we people” don’t care about pregnant women when we’re the ones offering aid, begging black women to stop allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the money hungry business of abortion-providers, and engaging in debates like this on the Internet with actual facts. I mean, you can claim that. You’d just be incorrect. Like you were above.

Here’s the other thing, @prettyvintageafternoon. Human life has intrinsic worth and value from conception because God (Yahweh, of the Bible) assigns that worth and value to us. That same God cares infinitely more about you, about pregnant women, about black people, than I ever could. And He’s the only one who can both administer justice to the innocent, and redeem the guilty. He heals the hurt and restores the broken. So if you, yourself, are living as the lord and master over your own life, I’m not ashamed to beg you: please stop. Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as Lord of your life. He’ll make you new. Just like He’s going to make all of this division and mess new, eventually. 

My God.

“…Doesn’t mean we have to obey you.”

You are so arrogant, it’s ridiculous. You think black people are just things for you to save, when we didn’t even ask for your presence.

Again, black women did not ask for you to take away our bodily autonomy. You just feel the need to do that so you can be savior.

All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.

The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.

(Source)

The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.

The anti-abortion is not here to serve people.

And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.

The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.

(Source)

So no, abortion clinics are not coming for black people. They’re not posting ads telling black people (or anybody else for that matter), “Hey, you need an abortion!” That’s a lie that white people like you choose to believe so you can feel needed.

And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.

And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.

Which of us is telling the other how she thinks, how she feels, and generalizing both motives and actions based on limited information? Which of us is making character assumptions based on a total lack of personal knowledge? You don’t know anything about me except what I just said–that I have beliefs about abortion and a worldview that is different than yours, and yet you are assuming my race, my opinion of you, and my innermost motivations.

But I’m the one who’s being controlling? @prettyvintageafternoon , you are the one assuming and generalizing and refusing to do your own “research.”

But I’m not here to get into a name-calling battle with you.

“All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.”

Let’s just skip right over the fact that I never said I was special for providing an ultrasound. Because you’re right, “licensed medical professionals” (by which I’ll assume, based on tonal argument, that you mean “licensed medical professionals who DO NOT work for PRCs,” because I just said that 12% of PRC workers are licensed medical professionals) don’t always pay themselves on the back for providing services. No. Instead, they get paid. And most PRC workers are volunteers.

Secondly, not all non-PRC licensed medical professionals offer all of the services I just described. Because not all of them are licensed to do all of the separate tasks I just described.

And ALL OF your above paragraph is not only taking my words in a different direction, but it’s besides the point. You made a truth claim: that anti-abortion people do not care about pregnant women “at all.” I disproved that truth claim BY SAYING that if anti-abortion organizations did not care, there would not be PRCs offering the aforementioned services. I answered your truth claim. You’re trying to swerve off-topic by accusing PRC workers/me of “patting ourselves on the back” and feeling “special for providing an ultrasound.” In reality, none of that has any bearing on what we’re talking about, so let’s get back to the point.

“The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.”

What “real clinics?” Abortion clinics? Here we get down to it–for some reason, you get to decide which medical licenses professionals are “real?” If they’re not providing abortions, they’re not providing care? Or are you saying “real clinics” comparatively? Because there are more than one kind of Pregnancy Resource Center. Some are medically licensed as an establishment, and some are no more medically licensed than a soup kitchen and therefore would be held to different standards based on services offered.

Where’s your source for the “purposeful lies to get pregnant women in the door?” Where’s your source for supposed “false aid?”

As far as Google itself as a source, you do realize that Google is a corporation? Google is not an objective fact-presenting platform. It is a business. Therefore just because Google “flags” something does not mean that I should take their word as reflective of objective fact and absolute truth. I mean, not even university professors asking for sources cited on academic papers will accept Google’s “flagging” as a reliable source, in most instances.

But that doesn’t even matter. Again, it’s not a problem worth addressing. PRCs were brought up as en example of care offered by anti-abortion people, a group you were erroneously stating “does not care about pregnant women at all.” I’m just pointing out that your counterpoints are not only off-topic, but poorly supported.

“The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.”

This is very untrue in several senses. 1) You have no idea whether or not every anti-abortion supporter knows your proposed fact, “that they don’t have to abide by HIPPA regulations.” You have no idea of that. You’re just assuming a whole group of people’s motives and intent without any source to back it up.

2) This is an incredibly disingenuous, misleading way to phrase your point. You make it sound like all PRCS offer health services (by using the vague word “serve”) which are not regulated by HIPPA. But in actuality, ONLY PRCs that do not ever claim to offer medical services directly do not need to be regulated by HIPPA…just like a baseball team wouldn’t need to be regulated by HIPPA. Because a baseball team is not, nor DID IT EVER CLAIM TO BE, staffed by licensed medical professionals. The fact that some PRCS do have licensed medical professionals working for them means that those practitioners are absolutely regulated by both HIPPA and state legislature. So, sure, some PRCs aren’t regulated by HIPPA, but they’re the ones that wouldn’t need to be, because they’re not offering health care any more than a soup kitchen is, and they never claimed to be.

“And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.“

It doesn’t matter how big or red a font you use–you better stop speaking for all black people. Not all black women know who Margaret Sanger is. I didn’t. My friends didn’t. My classmates didn’t. Saying that black women already know these facts is an outright lie. It might be more accurate to say you already knew that, sure.

Secondly, I absolutely do not see all black women as “breeders of your race.” You’re the one who read that into what I was actually saying, which is simply logical: without mothers, there is no continuation of any living organism. That is fact. That is reality. But the word “breeders” which I never said, which YOU assumed, adds a connotation to it that makes it sound like I’m limiting, comparing, or reducing the black woman to a specimen of animal needed to continue the species. That was absolutely not the point of what I said, and you 100% know it. You’re rephrasing what I say and outright twisting the words to lie and assume my motive.

I didn’t say black women were breeders. I said that black children are being murdered disproportionately to their birth rate. I said that Margaret Sanger was specifically targeting the black community to exterminate them and founded Planned Parenthood to do it. In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist. You sure are arguing with a person who isn’t even there. You sure are projecting a debate opponent from your imagination onto me, because none of what I’ve said has provided proof of your truth claims about what I am or what I believe or even what I claim.

And guess what else? Nobody’s arguing to “take away your reproductive decisions” here, in this debate between me and you. I am arguing to take away your state-given ability to murder another human being. And no amount of you re-phrasing or twisting my words can make the issue any more or any less about that.

Margaret Sanger was a racist and her racist work is not only thriving, it’s celebrated. That’s a fact. That’s quantifiable by current and historical data. It is truth; I don’t have to use it for anything. It just is.

“The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.“

It doesn’t show how I see all black people. It shows how I see the decisions made by SOME black people, and it shows how effective the historical founders of eugenics’ methods were.

Because actually, not all black people think the way you do. And it’s pretty revealing of you, yourself, that you, again, think you can speak for all black people AND assume my intentions and character at the same time. You’re the one relegating all black people to believing the same thing as yourself.

Additionally, I said “she was actively TRYING to manipulate black ministers.” I did not make any comment on whether or not she succeeded.

You sure are projecting a debate opponent who isn’t actually here onto me. You sure are arguing against points I never made. Why are you doing that?

“Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.”

This is, again, disingenuous and misleading, either of you or of the source you’re citing. Because the truth is, only 13.6% of the country is made up of black people. In fact, to include other ethnicities, here’s the government census:

White people make up more than half of the total U.S. population. So of course any abortion clinic that is within walking distance of a community with high amounts of ethnic-minority population is ALSO going to be located “in neighborhoods that are mostly white.” Because everything’s “mostly white,” according to our national census percentages. Even the highest concentrations of minorities will still be outnumbered by whites in most communities. That doesn’t change the fact that abortion clinics are within walking distance of minority-heavy communities.

So again, sure, what you’re saying SOUNDS like abortion clinics aren’t being racist. But when you look at the whole picture and don’t completely ignore their historical origins to boot, they definitely are racist.

Here’s a source for that. I DID do my research. Listen, the racism of the abortion industry, especially Planned Parenthood, is a well-documented fact. It is undeniable. I’m happy to argue that point from several other directions, because there’s no shortage of proof.

“And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.“

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are better than abortion is one truth claim.

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are justified in collecting a profit because they are an alternative to abortion is ANOTHER, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TRUTH CLAIM THAT I NEVER MADE.

I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry. But the context of our discussion on this thread was “care,” which is arguably more noticeable when money is not a consideration in the conduct of the care-giver, so I brought that up as a compare-contrast. Again, you’re trying to assault my character, motive, and even assign me a race in order to discount my arguments without doing the work of actually counter-arguing.

So miss me with that nonsense.

“And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

“Proselytizing” carries the connotation of a crusader forcing someone to pretend to believe something at sword point, or a charlatan manipulating someone with false promises. I’m doing neither. I can’t force you to believe something, and I can’t trick you into faith. That’s not how it works, and I never claimed it was.

If you mean, “Christians can’t help giving testimony,” then yeah, no, we can’t. Acts 4:20: “for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

If you were walking towards a land mine with no way of knowing it was there, but I had been warned about the land mine beforehand and saw you about to die, I would do the same thing I’m doing now: I’d tell you what I knew. You’re saying I should just let you walk toward the land mine, shrug my shoulders, and say, “hey, it’s no business of mine what they believes about the ground they walk on.”

No. I won’t. And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing. What nonsense.

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

You’re very, very wrong about this. In more ways than one. First off, “people like me?” Like who? Like Christian’s? Like white people?

What makes you think I’m white? You don’t know my race. You could claim to because I don’t agree with certain things, but that’s wouldn’t be evidence of anything but your own profiling.

But that’s not as important at all as what you believe about the God of the Bible’s connection to slavery.

Yes, many slave traders in U.S. history tried to use the God of the Bible to enslave black people (and other ethnicities.) But guess what? The lead abolitionists used the God of the Bible to abolish slavery, too. Know why?

Because the Bible and the God of the Bible DO NOT condone the American slave trade. Christianity is not a white man’s religion. It’s earliest non-Jewish origins can be traced to this day back to Ethiopia and Asian Antioch. Christianity was in Africa well before the American slave trade was.

You know good and well that just because one group of people uses a particular creed to justify their actions, that does not mean that the creed itself has anything to do with their actions. Not unless the creed LINES UP with those actions. And Biblical Christianity does not line up with the brutal enslavement and degradation of the black community throughout American history.

Get to know the actual God I worship instead of the fallible people claiming to worship Him.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

Yes–you are valuable–but you DO need to be made new. He already paid the ultimate price for you.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.“

You sure can make “reproductive” decisions without me, or white people, or whoever you’re referencing, present. But no, I won’t leave anybody alone who is actively advocating for murder. And as long as murder is the decision you’re making, I’ll speak out against it.

This whole conversation is not about you.

You keep centering yourself, your opinions and your wanting to be a savior in other people’s medical care when they did not ask for you. Do not whine to me about your character.

”…You better stop speaking for all black people.“

What exactly do you think you’ve been doing this entire time?

My entire point, since you choose to be willfully ignorant, is that black women can make their own medical decisions - including to have an abortion or not, without you. It’s so simple that even you can understand it.

And yes, when you make the argument that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population, you are arguing that people within the black population who can give birth - black women, need to breed to maintain their race’s numbers.

Your desire to avoid the racist implications of your beliefs is not my problem.

But then again, you pretty much admit that you are racist.

“In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”

Thank you for admitting your own lack of character. You did my work for me.

“I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry.”

Thank you for admitting that too. You are so intellectually lazy that you will pose adoption as an abortion alternative and then you choose not to care about the fact that they survive off using poor women’s babies as product, despite you literally saying that you know how screwed up the adoption industry is when we were talking.

And yes, you WERE proselytizing.

“Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as the Lord of your life.”

I don’t recall asking you for a sermon. You keep trying to drag me into your religion UNPROVOKED when it had NOTHING to do with the conversation. You’re not saving me from a land mine. You’re actively trying to convert me to your religion when I did not ask you to do so.

“And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing.”

Here you go! You keep making this conversation about you and your feelings.

And then you bring up abolitionists when that has nothing to do with my point. It does not matter if Christianity isn’t only practiced by white people. People used your religion to enslave people who look like me.

That is a fact.

I do not care about other people’s decision to be Christian. That is their right.

MY POINT is that I am not interested in joining your religion. You can keep it.

“Yes – you are valuable – but you DO need to be made new.”

Notice the use of the word ‘need.’

You see how you keep using authoritative language to try and pull me into a religion that I am not interested in joining? That falls under proselytizing, which is attempting to convert.

“But no, I won’t leave anyone alone who is actively advocating for murder.”

So you acknowledge that black women did not ask for your presence and you still choose to be in our reproductive business?

Just say yes so that we can be done.

Okay, @prettyvintageafternoon, all of that about my religion, my proselytization, my “willful ignorance,” and how I’m making this personal is an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

Now, can you actually answer any of my counter arguments? If you want to stop talking about me, can I suggest that you start with literally…any of the non-me-focused counterarguments I made? The points I made about multiple PRC types? The points I made about adoption agencies as an alternative to abortion being a separate truth claim than their justification (since you mentioned it…again…as if I didn’t just re-address it?) The points I made about the multi-ethnic divisions of population proportions? The points I made about your validation method for “care” or “service” to pregnant women?

Any of those? No?

The only points of mine that you’ve quasi-addressed are the ones that relate to my defense of my own character, or lack thereof (like when I said “I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”)

You’re still actively twisting what I’ve said about murdered black children to mean that I am somehow racist. You’re ignoring anything I have to say that directly refutes your claims about abortion or anti-abortion advocates.

Case in point: I never made the argument “that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population.” I made the argument that abortion clinics don’t care about the black population because they’re killing black children at a higher rate than they’re being born, intentionally, through abortion–and I made that point as a compare/contrast to PRCS, to specifically refute your claim about which party actually cares about pregnant women.

But you took that point and only addressed it in order to make it about whether or not I’m racist. So again–you gonna answer my actual arguments?

As for the only question you’ve actually asked me: yeah, big time, I’ve BEEN acknowledging that black women didn’t ask for me to get involved in this issue. You knew that; don’t know why you think me staying it over and over will make me “be done.”

Because, the thing is, when one person is advocating for murdering another person, (doesn’t matter what gender or race) the right thing to do is for any third parties (me) knowledgeable of the event to do something or say something about it.

So I’m not done. You can be if you feel like it; it’s a free website and, as I said, you really stopped arguing with what I was actually saying a while ago and just started attacking straw men.

Oh, and I guess, if your definition of proselytizing is “making any truth claims about others or the state of the world,” then sure, I was proselytizing. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, you did choose to make this whole conversation personal. You trying to pretend that you’re logical after trying to shove your religion down my throat for the past couple days every time you had an opportunity speaks to your lack of character. You weren’t speaking any kind of truth. You were attempting to convert me when that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Plain and simple.

And yes,

“I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

Those were your words and they represent you very well. I didn’t tell you to type that. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Onto the matter of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, you listed a bunch of services that they offer to women as a form of care. I responded by reminding you that doctors already provide those services. MY POINT is that Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not do anything that medical professionals don’t already do for their patients, so you using the afformentioned services as a way to say PRCs care about pregnant women doesn’t mean much of anything. AND you acknowledged that most of these places are run by volunteers - meaning they don’t have to abide by federal regulations when serving people. That’s a huge problem because pregnancy is a medical situation for the person who is pregnant.

Then you acted like abortion clinics being ‘within walking distance’ of minorities is proof of racism, as if they are forcing people of certain races to use their services. I told you that most abortion clinics are in majority white communities, which is true. Doesn’t matter if white people are a majority of Americans or not. Abortion clinics are not telling black people they need to get abortions, whether you like it or not.

A black woman can get an abortion.

A black woman can have kids.

A black woman can do both of those things if she wants.

That’s not up to me.

All I care about is her choices being available to her.

My overarching point - the reason why I’ve been going back and forth with you, is that what a black woman chooses to do regarding her own reproduction is none of your business or anybody else’s.

Nobody twisted what you said. Your argument had a racist implication and I responded to it.

If race wasn’t relevant to begin with, you wouldn’t have brought up all that crap about Margaret B. Sanger or abortion being ‘sold to black people as healthcare’ in the first place.

You’re just restating your former points, not addressing the new ones I made. I told you, NOT all doctors provide the same services as PRCs. Sure, maybe both can provide ultrasounds, but no, both do not provide things like housing, baby care supplies, counseling, etc. You’re also…still ignoring the fact that I addressed your claim about volunteers and how they actually do have to abide by federal regulations when offering medical services. You’re also still ignoring what I actually said about adoption and it’s alleged ‘‘justification.’

 And you’re just restating your point about white neighborhoods, AND restating my counter argument involving percentages without addressing how that argument actually applies. 

I’ll counter, again, the only thing you said which actually tried to answer me: “Doesn’t matter if the majority of the population is white or not.” Actually, yes, it does, in the context of where abortion clinics choose to establish themselves and whether or not they’re purposely targeting black people to sell their services to. It is not an accident that they look for the highest concentration of minorities in majority-white neighborhoods. That is a direct connection to the other fact: that the highest percentage of children killed in an abortion clinic in this country are black. Factor that in with Planned Parenthoid’s racist origins, and you’d have to be sticking your head in the sand not to see the racist implications. Not because I view the women of color as breeding stock. Because abortion clinics treat them as breeding stock. That is my argument. You’re the one who made it about me, because you couldn’t refute my actual points.

I’ll say it again, to give you opportunity to respond: You started making a distinction about black people when it comes to abortion, not me. You started making truth claims about which party cares about pregnant women. Within the context that you started this with, which was black people and parties that care about pregnant women, I brought up Margaret Sanger. Because she is relevant. You introduced:

A) The idea that anti-abortion parties don’t care about women

B) The example of a black woman having to go across states to get an abortion, wherein abortion was represented as a type of care in contrast to the alleged “‘lack of care” that anti-abortion parties have

C) Planned Parenthood, who provided that alleged care when anti-abortion parties, such as the Louisiana leaders, wouldn’t.

When you introduced A, B, and C, I followed right on track with the same topics. You began this debate as if race were a factor. I just picked up where you left off. And you continue to make most of your argument about whether or not I’m racist, and re-stating your points as if mine were not countering them, as if all you need to do is repeat yourself. 

Finally, you continue to dodge counters to your supporting arguments and return to make your “overarching point:” that what a black woman (again, you’re the one who made that distinction in the first place) does with her own reproduction is her business and so me and anyone who doesn’t like it should shut up and mind our own businesses.

But I’m not arguing with your overarching point. Because sure , when you say “reproductive rights,” that phrase, sociologically and scientifically can mean a few different choices that I wouldn’t want to have any control over or say in, such as: whether or not a woman decides to conceive a baby. That’s her business. How many babies a woman wants to conceive; that’s her business. How she raises or determines her own future in relation to children or sex life; that’s her business.

But abortion is not part of her reproductive rights, because abortion is murder of a separate human. Abortion is stepping outside of the realm of “what happens the the single human body of the woman” and into a realm where two humans are being affected. One, against its will—the innocent, entirely helpless baby who never asked to allegedly “impose” on the mother by existing in the first place. But it’s not that baby who is protected and offered choices once it does exist. It is the woman who is given the choice to murder. 

And that’s when it becomes my business. 

Glad you dropped the Bible verses and the BS claim about me "attacking” your character.

Yes, if you choose to bring up the black population specifically then the people within that population who can give birth - women with my skin color, are a part of the conversation. We’ve been over this.

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion deates and then want to ignore the women of that race and their experiences.

You trying to act like PRCs care about pregnant people for providing counseling or housing when there are actual counselors with training and experience and housing that can be obtained through governmental services (which most pro-lifers literally vote against because most of them are conservatives who despise welfare and social programs - as well as paying the taxes to pay for those things) is not unique.

Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.

Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.

You pressuring or forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of what they want when they’re the one who’s pregnant, is treating them as breeding stock. For someone who’s so obsessed with abortion clinics, because you think they’re targeting minorities, you’re no better than they are.

The fact that you chose to pivot to Margaret B Sanger when I was talking about a particular black woman who was negatively impacted because of anti-abortion policy shows how easily you disregard minorities when it’s convenient. And no, the harm that was done to her was not “alleged.” She publicly told everyone about her entire experience, and she has a right to be upset.

You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights. Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.

Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent. Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is. Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. Simple.

You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.

When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice. If they want to kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

I don’t know how I missed this. But wow. I literally had to double-check and make sure that this reblog was in response to me, because of how blatantly and insistently you keep changing what I have said AND what you, yourself, have said. 

I mean, you might as well be arguing with a completely different user who had entirely different arguments than mine. Let’s review. 

This is you. Bringing up “black women,” first, in the very first post of this whole thread. 

Again, let me say it as clearly as possible: you started the conversation. And you made it about black women. Like I said, HERE:

Then, somehow, you still manage to try and argue this:

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion debates and then want to ignore women of that race and their experiences. 

What are you doing? What are you talking about? @prettyvintageafternoon , can you see this? Can you see that you are the one who brought up race, and then called me a racist, and are now acting like I’m the one who brought it up? 

“Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.”

Again, what are you talking about? Who asked them to kiss my feet? You already tried this. You already said PRCs “expect a pat on the back,” and I already said, “nobody’s asking for that.” We’ve done this already. For the final time:

YOU claimed that PRCs do not care. I refuted that with examples of services that they offer. And you are somehow claiming that just because they’re offering services that others offer, that negates it as proof of their care. That’s like saying, “the soup kitchen in the South does not care about homeless people, because you can buy soup at the store.” 

But we’ve already been through this. Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. Can you hear me? Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. What I am saying is that you cannot prove your original claim, which is that they don’t care. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. 

“Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing, or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.”

Seriously, @prettyvintageafternoon, can you actually follow any of what I’m actually saying, or are you just going to keep arguing against someone who isn’t here? Someone you made up? 

prettyvintageafternoon. Margaret B Sanger IS the proof that Planned Parenthood is targeting people to walk inside. That was not a pivot. THAT was my proof that black people are being targeted. That, and the clinic’s location in relation to the disproportionate minority populations. 

That was my response to you talking about a particular black woman. It was totally in the natural flow of your argument: YOU brought up that she was black, and that abortion was care that she was receiving, and withholding it was harmful. I responded by saying, “no, Planned Parenthood is not caring for black people like the one you’re talking about, because it is very demonstrably targeting black people, and here are two proofs of how.” 

Now this is getting so repetitive and nonsensical. You have done nothing but repeat yourself or argue with a straw man. For the final time, if you actually want to stand up for what you believe in, and against what I’m actually saying, then stand up against what I’m ACTUALLY saying. Can you respond to these counter arguments—these counter arguments, right here—or not?

• There are more than one type of Pregnancy Resource Center, and all of the ones that offer medical services which qualify for complying with HIPPA, DO comply with HIPPA. So you lied. 
• Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative only to murdering children. 
• When the biggest percentage of a population is white, then no matter where an abortion clinic is set up, it will be in a “predominantly white” area—but that does not mean that it is not also in the largest concentrations of minorities. That is what “minority” means. Therefore: Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate amount of clinics within walking distance to minority-concentrated neighborhoods, indicating racial targeting. 
• Christianity was in Ethiopia long before the slave-traders who claimed to be Christians.

Can you, or can’t you, actually refute what I actually said? Because if you can’t, then everyone reading this is not seeing you stand up for what you believe in. They are seeing you repeat yourself, dodge the counterarguments, and hide behind straw men. 

While you’re doing that, I’ll actually be responding to the new truth claims you brought up. 

“You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights.  Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.”

This is silly. You don’t get to decide that reproductive rights include any of the things you just listed—most importantly, killing the child. Good job, you summarized the debate topic. So now what?

“Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent.  Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is.  Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent.  Simple.”

How in the world can you omnisciently claim that every pregnant woman is also an innocent woman? What are you talking about? Innocent of what, exactly? Sex? You’re making an argument I’m not making. I never posited that sex was a punishable offense, and that the punishment must always be letting a child live. 

Children are not punishments. Innocence is not in reference to the absence or presence of sex. And for the record, the fault of rape is the rapists. Not the pregnant woman’s—and not the baby’s resulting from the rape. 

I can claim that any and all fetuses are innocent because it has made zero choices. It can’t. It is, by definition, dependent and defenseless. But you don’t get to claim that about pregnant women everywhere—because they all make choices, and you have absolutely zero way of knowing if those choices were good, bad, right, wrong, criminal, etc., universally. 

So what you’re doing here—let’s be so clear—what you’re doing here is believing a narrative that every woman who walks into an abortion clinic with the intent to murder has never made a morally wrong or criminal decision—AND you are implying that this means they can murder children—AND you are implying that children are a punishment that a woman who must carry a child to term is subjected to unjustly. That’s exactly what you’re doing, just to be clear. 

You’re absolutely right: no THING should get to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. But guess what. A baby is not a “THING” like a tumor or a wart or a cyst. A baby is a human being. And by being a human being, it has rights. And those rights are “you don’t get to kill me, just because my existence is dependent on you, or because your situation is tragic.”

How’s that for simple?

“You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.”

So be it. Me telling someone that they can’t cut their five year-old toddler apart with a knife, whether they like it or not, whether I know their medical history or how that five year-old toddler is affecting their health, would probably also be imposing. But that’s how justice and right and wrong work. If you want to murder, just people are going to impose upon you not to do it. That’s the argument here. You wanna argue against that? 

“When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice.  If they want to kick you out, you gotta go.  If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.”

This is the most tired, broke, sad reasoning I’ve ever seen. And it’s just lazy. 

You’re telling me, first of all, that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?

Really? 

Autonomy is defined as “the ability to make an informed, uncoerced decision,” or, in terms of personal sustainability, someone who does not need someone else’s resources to survive.

So I’ll ask you again. Is that what you really believe? That humans have to meet those requirements, or else their bodies are at the disposal of anyone who does meet those standards? I.E. A pregnant woman can think and make decisions on her own, and can, to some extent, feed and care for herself, therefore she should be allowed to murder a child in the fetus stage who can’t do any of those things?

So how about the woman who’s on SNAP? She’s dependent on the United States Food Stamp Program to supply her with sustenance. She’s not autonomous. She’s dependent. Can the United States rip her apart as soon as she becomes inconvenient? Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all. 

Oh, or are you just talking about bodily? Well, how about the person diagnosed with Alzheimer’s? They are not autonomous. They are dependent on someone else for everything—they can’t even make informed decisions, because information disappears from their minds. Should their caretakers, family members, doctors, rip them apart and murder them? No? Why not? They’re not autonomous. Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

How about if that Alzheimer’s patient was living in their son’s house? Then they got sick with Alzheimer’s and literally couldn’t make the choice to move out, because they can’t remember where they are or what they’re supposed to be doing. No way to make an independent choice for their own safety. You’re arguing that the son should say, “if I wanna kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.” …and you’re arguing, furthermore, that the son should not just “kick the Alzheimer’s parent out,” but has every right to grab a machete and start hacking that Alzheimer’s parent to pieces, or poison them, then suck the body parts out of their house. After all, bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

How about a three year-old child? Too young to understand sex, dependent on adults to feed and clothe and care for them. Should those adults get to do whatever they want with that kid?  Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

All you really mean is, anyone who can be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman (I.e. a child who cannot speak up for or defend itself, or even choose to flee the womb) should be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman. 

That’s what you’re saying. Is that what you genuinely want to be saying? Assuming you even respond to what I actually said.

First of all, if you’re talking about reproduction in within the black population then yes, black women are automatically included in the conversation. How you thought otherwise is beyond me.

Second, if you’re going to bitch and moan about being called a racist, you need to look at the words that you used.

"I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

…Yes, those were your words. If you’re racist, at least be woman enough to say you are and stop acting indignant when other people call you out on it.

Third, yes - I did respond and say that Crisis Pregnancy Centers are not unique for offering services that can be obtained at other places. Furthermore, most Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not follow HIPPA. That’s a fact. And even the ones who do follow HIPPA are pretty questionable, apparently, since a woman had to get one of her fallopian tubes removed after being told that her ectopic pregnancy was viable not too long ago. The main point of a Crisis Pregnancy Center is to pressure women to continue their pregnancies by any means necessary, regardless of any risk to the person who is pregnant.

Any time you are so desperate to pressure others to continue their pregnancy that you set up shoddy alternatives to actual clinics and give people faulty medical advice, you cannot claim that you are acting in the best interest of that patient. Period. And before you ask, “faulty medical advice” includes the following (and yes, CPCs have done these).

• Incorrectly reading ultrasounds
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of mental health problems
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of breast cancer
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of infertility
• Offering abstinence-only education

It’s one thing to offer services to pregnant women. If they take them, that’s up to them. It’s another to intentionally place yourself near abortion clinics to lure people, posture yourself as medical alternative and then tell them things that are not scientifically true and/or tell them things about their pregnancy which are not true, which can put their life at risk.

On the subject of adoption, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. If someone is going to adopt a kid, someone else has to carry a pregnancy to term successfully for that to be possible. I don’t care how many women have infertility issues or how many have had miscarriages, it is not the responsibility of an individual to pop out babies so that someone else can have their pick of the litter and choose which child they want to add to their “perfect family.” Someone who is viably fertile and pregnant doesn’t owe you anything. If someone wants a kid, they can pay or adopt a baby. You do not get to treat someone as a free or affordable breeder because you are desperate for a child. End of story.

In response to your argument about Planned Parenthood targeting minorities, being within walking distance =/= targeting someone. Aside from the fact that most Planned Parenthood locations are in majority white neighborhoods and the fact that not all Planned Parenthood locations even offer abortion as a service, being within walking distance of someone does not mean you’re targeting them. If I’m hungry and I want a salad, I can drive right past the McDonald’s nearest to me, go to WalMart and buy my desired vegetables. If someone wants an abortion, they’re going to go to someone who offers that service. That’s literally why women leave states that aren’t abortion-prohibitive to get to places that offer abortion (like Nancy Davis did, whose story you easily disregarded because it wasn’t convenient for your narrative).

Also, Margaret B Sanger did not create Planned Parenthood to target black Americans. Planned Parenthood did not even start offering abortion until after Roe v Wade. She did create birth control clinics and popularized the term “birth control.” Abortion has existed long before her, and despite any problematic opinions that she may have held, anti-abortion zealots like you acting like she’s the boogeyman of the black community in order to justify stripping black people who reproduce of their reproductive rights is laughable.

People want the services that they want. That’s something that “pro-lifers” like you have never understood with regard to conversations about abortion-access. You, a non-black person consistently arguing that abortion is “SoLd tO bLaCk pEoPle As HeAlThCare” literally shows how comfortable you feel infantilizing minorities.

Black people, black woman included, do not need you to ‘save us’ or ‘protect us’ from our own reproductive decisions. We can make our own choices, different though they may be depending on which black person you speak to. People in the anti-abortion movement have been using us as an anti-abortion talking point for years, despite a majority of black people not voting for anti-abortion politicians (most of which are conservative), supporting reproductive justice organizations and campaigns (which do include abortion access), etc.

On the subject of Christianity, you bringing up Ethiopia does not dismiss the history of Christians using their religion as a means to justify enslavement or treating black people as less than them. It does not take away from Christians giving versions of the Bible to enslaved people and cutting out stories like Moses’ in order to discourage rebellion. It does not take away from Christian slave owners using their religion to teach slaves to be obedient to them as Christians are to their God. Christianity has played a huge role in the mistreatment of black people within the confines of American history. You, trying to proselytize to me earlier on this conversation and lecture me with your religious beliefs (which had nothing to do with the conversation) does not change any of that.

“Children are not punishments.”

Tell that to the person that you see in the mirror, along with every single anti-abortion advocate who tells women to close their legs, during any abortion-related conversation. You people use forced pregnancy as a means to punish people who have sex constantly. You “pro-lifers” are notorious for that.

If children weren’t punishments to “pro-lifers” like you, you wouldn’t force other people to have them.

Next, your argument about “innocence.” Pro-lifers like you bellyache about “innocent babies being slaughtered” - especially when standing outside places that you think offer abortion, to emotionally manipulate and pressure someone who is pregnant into carrying that pregnancy to term. Y'all are the same people who take photos of people walking into clinics, shout at them, etc. It’s the reason why a lot of places that offer abortion have clinic escorts because people who think like you like to harass patients.

Yes, I did say that pregnant women are also innocent. Unless having sex inside of wedlock or outside of it is suddenly a crime, yes - the pregnant person is innocent.

You saying “the rape is fault of the rapist” is a strawman. I didn’t argue otherwise and neither has any other pro-choice advocate. If someone is forcibly impregnated against their will and they decide to keep their pregnancy, that is their choice. They are well within their rights to do that. Anti-abortion zealots like you forcing a victim of sexual assault to carry a pregnancy to term, if they do not want to, is punishing them for being assaulted.

“You’re telling me that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?”

Yes.

That’s how that works. Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand.

Someone who uses a governmental service is not…comparable to a fetus. They’ve already been born and they can remove themselves from that governmental program. That is not remotely the same thing as using someone’s body for 9 months (best case scenario) in order to stay alive.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

A three year old child has also already been born. Killing a three year old is murder - actual murder, not just what anti-abortion weirdos like you call murder. It’s legal murder, which involves the presence of premeditated malice. A woman who gets an abortion is not a murderer. A woman who stabs a 3 year old in the chest very much is. Easy difference to understand, for the rest of us who have functioning braincells.

Comparing a fetus to various racial groups, alzherimers patients, actual children is not the argument that you think it is. It actually makes you look intellectually lazy, which I expect from you at this point.

No “human being” gets to use someone’s body to sap nutrients from or grow against that person’s will. If you want to treat fetuses like everybody else, fine. We will hold them to the same standard.

Also, most abortions are medication abortions and most abortions happen within the first trimster. You arguing that “BaBiEs ArE bEiNg RiPpEd ApArT” is not only not factual, it’s also emotionally manipulative. There are no bodies being ripped apart.

Overall, my beliefs are the following.

1. People are entitled to make their own reproductive decisions, which includes abortion
2. Black people are not the horse on which the anti-abortion movement gets to ride on to justify forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term
3. Nobody owes someone else a kid to adopt just because they’re viably fertile or pregnant
4. If you, especially as a non-black person, support forcing a black person to carry a pregnancy to term because you think they need to breed to maintain their racial population, you are racist. Black people, black women in particular, are not breeders to fulfill any type of racial quota.

@prettyvintageafternoon

…You either have no capability of following an argument, or, you know you cannot refute my claims, so you’re ignoring them in favor of repeating yourself.

I gave you a list of my points for you to respond to, in plain English. Nice and neat, in one place. And did you respond? Nope.

You used some of the words in that list of points to pretend like you were addressing them, but actually, you just went back over what you’ve already said. Or, you began arguing against something that I never said. Which is the definition of a straw man argument.

Look. If you can’t understand what I’m saying, that’s one thing. But if you can’t refute what I’m actually saying, the words that are actually written down, why waste time repeating yourself? I’m certainly not going to. I’ve done that enough, here, and you either can’t read what I’m saying, or you don’t want to address it. That’s clear. I’m willing to bet you just don’t want to address it. That’s what your repeated "pivot” to calling me racist, assuming my race, and other red herrings and straw men seem to indicate.

But here’s something I’ll ask in plain English, in response to your claim, and just leave it open-ended. Then we’ll see if you can finally directly respond, or if you’ll just keep doing what you’ve been doing. At least the people who bother to read this will be able to see who can reason and argue, and who can’t.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

No, prettyvintageafternoon. NOT like “everyone else.” For some reason, even though you just admitted that an Alzheimer’s patient, like a fetus, has no ability to make their own decisions, and is dependent on their next of kin, like a fetus–they don’t get to have “various legal protections.” They’re torn apart in the womb because they’re inconvenient, burdensome, and/or scary to the woman carrying them.

it’s literally the same scenario. The differences are, an Alzheimer’s patient is near to the end of their life at the time that they cannot make their own decisions. A fetus, if they weren’t aborted, would be at the beginning of theirs. You’re literally proving my point. There is no philosophical, ethical, or reasonable difference between an Alzheimer’s-afflicted parent dependent on their next of kin and a fetus dependent on their mother. Except that we allow and encourage the murder of one, by the millions, and protect the other.

And yes. Bodies are being ripped apart in abortions. Arms. Legs. It is literally a common form of abortion. It’s not the only one, and some states have outlawed it, but it’s one of them. When a child in the womb has reached a certain stage of development, they have to dismember it through the use of forceps in order to remove all traces of the pregnancy from the mother–have you ever actually studied abortion? Your ignorance is showing.

First of all, I have responded to everything you said. Your logic is not sound enough to come up with a rebuttal. That is your problem.

"I never claimed not to be racist.”

Your words. If you don’t like being called racist, don’t type sentences with a double negatives implying that you are. And don’t use minorities as an anti-abortion talking point because you think that we’re too stupid to make our own reproductive decisions without your input.

Does every black woman choose to get an abortion? No. Does every black woman choose to have children? No. Does any of that have to do with you, as someone who is not them? Absolutely not.

A black person getting abortion or choosing to have kids is their choice. Not yours.

Now, onto your bullshit argument about comparing fetuses to Alzheimer’s patients.

An Alzheimers patient is not a fetus.

The fact that “pro-lifers” like you have to compare fetuses to living, breathing people in order to make an argument proves that you cannot argue honestly.

An Alzheimer’s patient has already been born, and because of that and the fact that they cannot make their own decisions, their next-of-kin is the one who speaks with their doctor and caregivers and/or takes care of them by themself.

So no, someone’s body is comparable to a retirement home or special medical care facility. Caring for an older person who has been born is not comparable to carrying a pregnancy to term for 9 months, which has risk for the person who is pregnant.

Also, not all Alzheimers patients are older. Most are, but not all.

You keep using words like “inconvenient” and “burdensome” in the context of pregnancy because it’s easier for you to imply that pregnancy is an easy, passive process rather than something that physically damages the pregnant person’s body and carries medical risk.

And you lied. A majority of abortions are medication abortions (using mifepristone and misopristol) and a majority of abortions take place within the first trimester - before arms and legs are formed. Most late-term take place due to medical reasons, primarily when the pregnancy is no longer viable. Nobody is waiting until the day before they go into labor to shrug and say “I don’t want this pregnancy anymore. Let me go get an abortion” - despite what people like you want to believe.

If you want to argue about stripping bodily autonomy from another person, I suggest you do so honestly or stop bitching.

Darling, you have not been able to actually respond–as in, refute or concede my point–to one point I have made. Not one. You’ve simply repeated your own points, while mirroring a few of the new words I use back at me. It’s a way to look like you’re responding, but is easily seen through by anyone reading.

For example. Right now, you are using the words "arms and legs,” to pretend you’re responding to my point about dismemberment. But actually, in context, you’re arguing against something I never said. I never said most abortions etc., and I never lied. You’d just like to believe I’m a liar because I believe something different than you, and you’d like anyone browsing through our little conversation to think you’re making some sort of point.

Just like you took my sentence “I never said I wasn’t racist.” And framed it as an admission of the guilt of racism, rather than responding to it in its actual context: I was pointing out that you were bringing up, in the post-previous to “I never said I wasn’t racist,” something completely off-topic.

See? It keeps coming back to this. You’re not really responding to my arguments. You’re concocting arguments I never made, sprinkling a keyword or two that I used in to disguise those fake arguments, and then pretending to be right by knocking down arguments I never made.

Again, that’s called a straw man argument.

I could point out how you’ve done that with each of the topics o presented: the Alzheimer’s patient comparison, the dismemberment point, etc. But since I’ve already repeated several of my previous arguments in an attempt to get you to address them, and you won’t, I won’t trouble myself to do it again this time.

You can read. You can scroll up and see, one reply above, all of the ways I combatted your original claims. You can choose to fight back, or you can keep shadowboxing.

I’ll just slide back to this. And until you can be an honest conversant, with opinions that she can back up with facts in direct response to what I actually said, I’ll be here, asking you this question:

Can you drop the points about who I am and actually debate the facts and points I very specifically bring up? Or do you concede my points?

Bitch, I’m not your fucking darling.

I did respond to ALL of your points. You don’t have rebuttals for my responses, which is why you did not respond to my other points.

A majority of abortions are medication abortions. That is a fact.

A majority of abortions also take place within the first trimester. That is another fact.

You arguing that "dismemberment” is a “common form of abortion” is also bullshit. Less than 1% of abortions take place in the third trimester, when the pregnancy is more than halfway over.

Since when is 1% a “common form of abortion?”

I’ll wait.

And like I said, most ‘late-term abortions’ occur because for medical reasons which are fetal anomalies, such as preeclampsia, placental abruption, membrane ruptures, etc. Situations like this are dangerous to the person who is pregnant, which us why pregnant patients who experience these situations choose to terminate.

Unless an unsuccessful pregnancy is one of those “inconveniences” you were talking about, your argument about “babies being butchered” was statistically false.

And yes, “I never said I wasn’t racist” is a stupid thing to say if you’re not a racist person. I didn’t hold a gun to your head. You typed that out, looked at it and said “Yeah, let me hit the Reblog button. This is solid.”

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eternal-echoes:

prettyvintageafternoon:

White supremacy is not just burning crosses on people’s lawn. It’s non-black people thinking they have paternal ownership over black people and their bodies, which is what you are doing.

This entire idea that ‘pro-lifers’ like you have made up in your head about “saving the black race” because you think it’s your place to intervene in black women’s medical decisions is exactly why the anti-abortion movement is trash. Black women are already the most likely to die in childbirth in the United States - particularly in anti-abortion states, and you think that you’re saving us by criminalizing abortion?

Please leave black women’s wombs alone.

You are not helping us.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful to provide more pregnancy medical resources to African American women so they don’t have to die in childbirth, rather than encouraging them to kill their own children?

I-

…

The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.

Most of you are conservatives who don’t even want to pay taxes. But pro-lifers care about spending time and money to provide medical resources to pregnant women?

Please.

Politicians who are elected by people who think like you don’t even want to talk about maternal mortality with regard to black women. For example, Louisiana is one of the worst states in the entire country for maternal mortality, and Senator Bill Cassidy - a Republican ‘pro-lifer" who represents this state, essentially said that if you ‘adjust for race’ then their maternal mortality rates aren’t that bad.

If you are pro-life and that state that you are paid to represent has some of the worst maternal mortality rates for a particular group of women and you choose to disregard that, you’re in no position to make medical decisions for that group.

Period.

And then there are the cases where black women’s doctors can’t even provide care because of people like you. There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New York for an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.

The fetus inside of her did not have a brain or a skull. It was not going to survive.

Any time a doctor responsible for their black patient is too scared to do their job because they fear fanatics like you throwing them in prison, that’s a problem.

So no. You anti-abortion psychos have had more than enough time - in the half a century that you have spent trying overturn legal protections for women’s medical privacy, to provide medical resources for marginalized women.

You people did not do that.

You people have spent all your time and energy crafting anti-abortion laws to incarcerate women (because the anti-abortion movement loves punishment), threatening medical professionals with jail time or removal of their hard-earned certifications, yelling at people outside of Planned Parenthood locations when you don’t know why they are there, calling women whores for having sex lives you don’t agree with and just sticking your nose in other people’s business.

Black women did not call you and say “Bestie, please make it possible to arrest me for murder if I get an abortion. 🤪”

You want to be a “savior for the black race” without doing any substantive work.

Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.

Here we go again! If you want to keep telling people who they can and can’t argue with and what they can and can’t talk about (quoting you: “Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.”) you can go ahead and do that. Doesn’t mean we have to obey you. 

What you’re saying is simply not true. First off:

“The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.”

You really shouldn’t use phrases like “at all” when you’re trying to argue facts. Because that’s absolutely not true. In 2019 alone, pregnancy resource centers served two million pregnant women. They provide holistic resources as well as donations. They offer pregnancy tests, STD testing, ultrasounds, housing, and educational resources as well as assistance applying for Medicaid, WICs and SNAPS.

There are more than 70,000 PRC workers in this nation alone, 12% of whom are working on a non-paid, volunteer basis to provide care for pregnant women, and more than 10,000 of them are licensed medical professionals. 

And if good will and volunteer work are not proof enough for you, millions of dollars are spent toward providing resources to pregnant women. 

Those resources are just not “kill the baby.” 

So you’re very wrong. While some anti-abortion-claiming people might not care about providing resources, you can’t say all anti-abortion people don’t care. 

“There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New Yorkfor an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.”

I’ll bet Nancy Davis did have to go to New York for an abortion. Because according to New York City Health Department reports, there are thousands more specifically black babies aborted in that city alone than there are born—and that’s been the case for years. 

Couple that with your Planned Parenthood name drop? You must not realize this, or you wouldn’t be mentioning it—Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was one of the most vile racists in our country’s history. You want to talk about white supremacy and trying to control others? This is a quote from her, to a friend in a letter in December of 1939: 

“We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” 

She was actively trying to manipulate African-American pastors into arguing for eugenics that would contribute to the murder of their children from the pulpit. Margaret Sanger even wrote a book called “‘The Pivot of Civilization” where she  argued for the weeding out of “unfit” people groups—which she specifically defined as anyone poor, sick, disabled, or in a minority. 

Abortion, in this country, does not have it’s roots in helping black people. It has it’s roots in killing black people off, one baby at a time, and selling it to them as “health care.” 

In reality, across the world, including in pro-life countries like Poland or in Chile, every time pro-life laws are passed, maternal mortality drops. There is a solid correlation between the two. 

But this all comes back to the last issue we discussed, and that is this—

The fact that Margaret Sanger was a racist trying to commit genocide against black people and used the invention of Planned Parenthood abortion clinics to do it; the fact that the black population in America remains low while the percentage of black children that are murdered is skyrocketing; the fact that abortion clinics specifically and disproportionately are established within walking distance of communities with higher populations of minorities; ALL OF THESE FACTS point to racism when you realize that, (no matter what you believe about the fetus’ validity as a life) the black population is shrinking in America. And it is doing so because you’re aborting your children, because they’re targeting you. You’re buying the propaganda telling you that killing your children is healthcare.

It isn’t. It’s murder. It’s murder, tending toward genocide. 

Only 0.15% of all abortions performed in America can be considered necessary to save the life of the mother. Let me state that again: less than 1% of all the children murdered are murdered to save the life of the mother.

You can’t claim “we people” don’t care about pregnant women when we’re the ones offering aid, begging black women to stop allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the money hungry business of abortion-providers, and engaging in debates like this on the Internet with actual facts. I mean, you can claim that. You’d just be incorrect. Like you were above.

Here’s the other thing, @prettyvintageafternoon. Human life has intrinsic worth and value from conception because God (Yahweh, of the Bible) assigns that worth and value to us. That same God cares infinitely more about you, about pregnant women, about black people, than I ever could. And He’s the only one who can both administer justice to the innocent, and redeem the guilty. He heals the hurt and restores the broken. So if you, yourself, are living as the lord and master over your own life, I’m not ashamed to beg you: please stop. Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as Lord of your life. He’ll make you new. Just like He’s going to make all of this division and mess new, eventually. 

My God.

“…Doesn’t mean we have to obey you.”

You are so arrogant, it’s ridiculous. You think black people are just things for you to save, when we didn’t even ask for your presence.

Again, black women did not ask for you to take away our bodily autonomy. You just feel the need to do that so you can be savior.

All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.

The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.

(Source)

The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.

The anti-abortion is not here to serve people.

And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.

The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.

(Source)

So no, abortion clinics are not coming for black people. They’re not posting ads telling black people (or anybody else for that matter), “Hey, you need an abortion!” That’s a lie that white people like you choose to believe so you can feel needed.

And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.

And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.

Which of us is telling the other how she thinks, how she feels, and generalizing both motives and actions based on limited information? Which of us is making character assumptions based on a total lack of personal knowledge? You don’t know anything about me except what I just said–that I have beliefs about abortion and a worldview that is different than yours, and yet you are assuming my race, my opinion of you, and my innermost motivations.

But I’m the one who’s being controlling? @prettyvintageafternoon , you are the one assuming and generalizing and refusing to do your own “research.”

But I’m not here to get into a name-calling battle with you.

“All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.”

Let’s just skip right over the fact that I never said I was special for providing an ultrasound. Because you’re right, “licensed medical professionals” (by which I’ll assume, based on tonal argument, that you mean “licensed medical professionals who DO NOT work for PRCs,” because I just said that 12% of PRC workers are licensed medical professionals) don’t always pay themselves on the back for providing services. No. Instead, they get paid. And most PRC workers are volunteers.

Secondly, not all non-PRC licensed medical professionals offer all of the services I just described. Because not all of them are licensed to do all of the separate tasks I just described.

And ALL OF your above paragraph is not only taking my words in a different direction, but it’s besides the point. You made a truth claim: that anti-abortion people do not care about pregnant women “at all.” I disproved that truth claim BY SAYING that if anti-abortion organizations did not care, there would not be PRCs offering the aforementioned services. I answered your truth claim. You’re trying to swerve off-topic by accusing PRC workers/me of “patting ourselves on the back” and feeling “special for providing an ultrasound.” In reality, none of that has any bearing on what we’re talking about, so let’s get back to the point.

“The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.”

What “real clinics?” Abortion clinics? Here we get down to it–for some reason, you get to decide which medical licenses professionals are “real?” If they’re not providing abortions, they’re not providing care? Or are you saying “real clinics” comparatively? Because there are more than one kind of Pregnancy Resource Center. Some are medically licensed as an establishment, and some are no more medically licensed than a soup kitchen and therefore would be held to different standards based on services offered.

Where’s your source for the “purposeful lies to get pregnant women in the door?” Where’s your source for supposed “false aid?”

As far as Google itself as a source, you do realize that Google is a corporation? Google is not an objective fact-presenting platform. It is a business. Therefore just because Google “flags” something does not mean that I should take their word as reflective of objective fact and absolute truth. I mean, not even university professors asking for sources cited on academic papers will accept Google’s “flagging” as a reliable source, in most instances.

But that doesn’t even matter. Again, it’s not a problem worth addressing. PRCs were brought up as en example of care offered by anti-abortion people, a group you were erroneously stating “does not care about pregnant women at all.” I’m just pointing out that your counterpoints are not only off-topic, but poorly supported.

“The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.”

This is very untrue in several senses. 1) You have no idea whether or not every anti-abortion supporter knows your proposed fact, “that they don’t have to abide by HIPPA regulations.” You have no idea of that. You’re just assuming a whole group of people’s motives and intent without any source to back it up.

2) This is an incredibly disingenuous, misleading way to phrase your point. You make it sound like all PRCS offer health services (by using the vague word “serve”) which are not regulated by HIPPA. But in actuality, ONLY PRCs that do not ever claim to offer medical services directly do not need to be regulated by HIPPA…just like a baseball team wouldn’t need to be regulated by HIPPA. Because a baseball team is not, nor DID IT EVER CLAIM TO BE, staffed by licensed medical professionals. The fact that some PRCS do have licensed medical professionals working for them means that those practitioners are absolutely regulated by both HIPPA and state legislature. So, sure, some PRCs aren’t regulated by HIPPA, but they’re the ones that wouldn’t need to be, because they’re not offering health care any more than a soup kitchen is, and they never claimed to be.

“And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.“

It doesn’t matter how big or red a font you use–you better stop speaking for all black people. Not all black women know who Margaret Sanger is. I didn’t. My friends didn’t. My classmates didn’t. Saying that black women already know these facts is an outright lie. It might be more accurate to say you already knew that, sure.

Secondly, I absolutely do not see all black women as “breeders of your race.” You’re the one who read that into what I was actually saying, which is simply logical: without mothers, there is no continuation of any living organism. That is fact. That is reality. But the word “breeders” which I never said, which YOU assumed, adds a connotation to it that makes it sound like I’m limiting, comparing, or reducing the black woman to a specimen of animal needed to continue the species. That was absolutely not the point of what I said, and you 100% know it. You’re rephrasing what I say and outright twisting the words to lie and assume my motive.

I didn’t say black women were breeders. I said that black children are being murdered disproportionately to their birth rate. I said that Margaret Sanger was specifically targeting the black community to exterminate them and founded Planned Parenthood to do it. In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist. You sure are arguing with a person who isn’t even there. You sure are projecting a debate opponent from your imagination onto me, because none of what I’ve said has provided proof of your truth claims about what I am or what I believe or even what I claim.

And guess what else? Nobody’s arguing to “take away your reproductive decisions” here, in this debate between me and you. I am arguing to take away your state-given ability to murder another human being. And no amount of you re-phrasing or twisting my words can make the issue any more or any less about that.

Margaret Sanger was a racist and her racist work is not only thriving, it’s celebrated. That’s a fact. That’s quantifiable by current and historical data. It is truth; I don’t have to use it for anything. It just is.

“The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.“

It doesn’t show how I see all black people. It shows how I see the decisions made by SOME black people, and it shows how effective the historical founders of eugenics’ methods were.

Because actually, not all black people think the way you do. And it’s pretty revealing of you, yourself, that you, again, think you can speak for all black people AND assume my intentions and character at the same time. You’re the one relegating all black people to believing the same thing as yourself.

Additionally, I said “she was actively TRYING to manipulate black ministers.” I did not make any comment on whether or not she succeeded.

You sure are projecting a debate opponent who isn’t actually here onto me. You sure are arguing against points I never made. Why are you doing that?

“Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.”

This is, again, disingenuous and misleading, either of you or of the source you’re citing. Because the truth is, only 13.6% of the country is made up of black people. In fact, to include other ethnicities, here’s the government census:

White people make up more than half of the total U.S. population. So of course any abortion clinic that is within walking distance of a community with high amounts of ethnic-minority population is ALSO going to be located “in neighborhoods that are mostly white.” Because everything’s “mostly white,” according to our national census percentages. Even the highest concentrations of minorities will still be outnumbered by whites in most communities. That doesn’t change the fact that abortion clinics are within walking distance of minority-heavy communities.

So again, sure, what you’re saying SOUNDS like abortion clinics aren’t being racist. But when you look at the whole picture and don’t completely ignore their historical origins to boot, they definitely are racist.

Here’s a source for that. I DID do my research. Listen, the racism of the abortion industry, especially Planned Parenthood, is a well-documented fact. It is undeniable. I’m happy to argue that point from several other directions, because there’s no shortage of proof.

“And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.“

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are better than abortion is one truth claim.

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are justified in collecting a profit because they are an alternative to abortion is ANOTHER, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TRUTH CLAIM THAT I NEVER MADE.

I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry. But the context of our discussion on this thread was “care,” which is arguably more noticeable when money is not a consideration in the conduct of the care-giver, so I brought that up as a compare-contrast. Again, you’re trying to assault my character, motive, and even assign me a race in order to discount my arguments without doing the work of actually counter-arguing.

So miss me with that nonsense.

“And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

“Proselytizing” carries the connotation of a crusader forcing someone to pretend to believe something at sword point, or a charlatan manipulating someone with false promises. I’m doing neither. I can’t force you to believe something, and I can’t trick you into faith. That’s not how it works, and I never claimed it was.

If you mean, “Christians can’t help giving testimony,” then yeah, no, we can’t. Acts 4:20: “for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

If you were walking towards a land mine with no way of knowing it was there, but I had been warned about the land mine beforehand and saw you about to die, I would do the same thing I’m doing now: I’d tell you what I knew. You’re saying I should just let you walk toward the land mine, shrug my shoulders, and say, “hey, it’s no business of mine what they believes about the ground they walk on.”

No. I won’t. And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing. What nonsense.

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

You’re very, very wrong about this. In more ways than one. First off, “people like me?” Like who? Like Christian’s? Like white people?

What makes you think I’m white? You don’t know my race. You could claim to because I don’t agree with certain things, but that’s wouldn’t be evidence of anything but your own profiling.

But that’s not as important at all as what you believe about the God of the Bible’s connection to slavery.

Yes, many slave traders in U.S. history tried to use the God of the Bible to enslave black people (and other ethnicities.) But guess what? The lead abolitionists used the God of the Bible to abolish slavery, too. Know why?

Because the Bible and the God of the Bible DO NOT condone the American slave trade. Christianity is not a white man’s religion. It’s earliest non-Jewish origins can be traced to this day back to Ethiopia and Asian Antioch. Christianity was in Africa well before the American slave trade was.

You know good and well that just because one group of people uses a particular creed to justify their actions, that does not mean that the creed itself has anything to do with their actions. Not unless the creed LINES UP with those actions. And Biblical Christianity does not line up with the brutal enslavement and degradation of the black community throughout American history.

Get to know the actual God I worship instead of the fallible people claiming to worship Him.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

Yes–you are valuable–but you DO need to be made new. He already paid the ultimate price for you.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.“

You sure can make “reproductive” decisions without me, or white people, or whoever you’re referencing, present. But no, I won’t leave anybody alone who is actively advocating for murder. And as long as murder is the decision you’re making, I’ll speak out against it.

This whole conversation is not about you.

You keep centering yourself, your opinions and your wanting to be a savior in other people’s medical care when they did not ask for you. Do not whine to me about your character.

”…You better stop speaking for all black people.“

What exactly do you think you’ve been doing this entire time?

My entire point, since you choose to be willfully ignorant, is that black women can make their own medical decisions - including to have an abortion or not, without you. It’s so simple that even you can understand it.

And yes, when you make the argument that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population, you are arguing that people within the black population who can give birth - black women, need to breed to maintain their race’s numbers.

Your desire to avoid the racist implications of your beliefs is not my problem.

But then again, you pretty much admit that you are racist.

“In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”

Thank you for admitting your own lack of character. You did my work for me.

“I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry.”

Thank you for admitting that too. You are so intellectually lazy that you will pose adoption as an abortion alternative and then you choose not to care about the fact that they survive off using poor women’s babies as product, despite you literally saying that you know how screwed up the adoption industry is when we were talking.

And yes, you WERE proselytizing.

“Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as the Lord of your life.”

I don’t recall asking you for a sermon. You keep trying to drag me into your religion UNPROVOKED when it had NOTHING to do with the conversation. You’re not saving me from a land mine. You’re actively trying to convert me to your religion when I did not ask you to do so.

“And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing.”

Here you go! You keep making this conversation about you and your feelings.

And then you bring up abolitionists when that has nothing to do with my point. It does not matter if Christianity isn’t only practiced by white people. People used your religion to enslave people who look like me.

That is a fact.

I do not care about other people’s decision to be Christian. That is their right.

MY POINT is that I am not interested in joining your religion. You can keep it.

“Yes – you are valuable – but you DO need to be made new.”

Notice the use of the word ‘need.’

You see how you keep using authoritative language to try and pull me into a religion that I am not interested in joining? That falls under proselytizing, which is attempting to convert.

“But no, I won’t leave anyone alone who is actively advocating for murder.”

So you acknowledge that black women did not ask for your presence and you still choose to be in our reproductive business?

Just say yes so that we can be done.

Okay, @prettyvintageafternoon, all of that about my religion, my proselytization, my "willful ignorance,” and how I’m making this personal is an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

Now, can you actually answer any of my counter arguments? If you want to stop talking about me, can I suggest that you start with literally…any of the non-me-focused counterarguments I made? The points I made about multiple PRC types? The points I made about adoption agencies as an alternative to abortion being a separate truth claim than their justification (since you mentioned it…again…as if I didn’t just re-address it?) The points I made about the multi-ethnic divisions of population proportions? The points I made about your validation method for “care” or “service” to pregnant women?

Any of those? No?

The only points of mine that you’ve quasi-addressed are the ones that relate to my defense of my own character, or lack thereof (like when I said “I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”)

You’re still actively twisting what I’ve said about murdered black children to mean that I am somehow racist. You’re ignoring anything I have to say that directly refutes your claims about abortion or anti-abortion advocates.

Case in point: I never made the argument “that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population.” I made the argument that abortion clinics don’t care about the black population because they’re killing black children at a higher rate than they’re being born, intentionally, through abortion–and I made that point as a compare/contrast to PRCS, to specifically refute your claim about which party actually cares about pregnant women.

But you took that point and only addressed it in order to make it about whether or not I’m racist. So again–you gonna answer my actual arguments?

As for the only question you’ve actually asked me: yeah, big time, I’ve BEEN acknowledging that black women didn’t ask for me to get involved in this issue. You knew that; don’t know why you think me staying it over and over will make me “be done.”

Because, the thing is, when one person is advocating for murdering another person, (doesn’t matter what gender or race) the right thing to do is for any third parties (me) knowledgeable of the event to do something or say something about it.

So I’m not done. You can be if you feel like it; it’s a free website and, as I said, you really stopped arguing with what I was actually saying a while ago and just started attacking straw men.

Oh, and I guess, if your definition of proselytizing is “making any truth claims about others or the state of the world,” then sure, I was proselytizing. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, you did choose to make this whole conversation personal. You trying to pretend that you’re logical after trying to shove your religion down my throat for the past couple days every time you had an opportunity speaks to your lack of character. You weren’t speaking any kind of truth. You were attempting to convert me when that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Plain and simple.

And yes,

"I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

Those were your words and they represent you very well. I didn’t tell you to type that. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Onto the matter of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, you listed a bunch of services that they offer to women as a form of care. I responded by reminding you that doctors already provide those services. MY POINT is that Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not do anything that medical professionals don’t already do for their patients, so you using the afformentioned services as a way to say PRCs care about pregnant women doesn’t mean much of anything. AND you acknowledged that most of these places are run by volunteers - meaning they don’t have to abide by federal regulations when serving people. That’s a huge problem because pregnancy is a medical situation for the person who is pregnant.

Then you acted like abortion clinics being ‘within walking distance’ of minorities is proof of racism, as if they are forcing people of certain races to use their services. I told you that most abortion clinics are in majority white communities, which is true. Doesn’t matter if white people are a majority of Americans or not. Abortion clinics are not telling black people they need to get abortions, whether you like it or not.

A black woman can get an abortion.

A black woman can have kids.

A black woman can do both of those things if she wants.

That’s not up to me.

All I care about is her choices being available to her.

My overarching point - the reason why I’ve been going back and forth with you, is that what a black woman chooses to do regarding her own reproduction is none of your business or anybody else’s.

Nobody twisted what you said. Your argument had a racist implication and I responded to it.

If race wasn’t relevant to begin with, you wouldn’t have brought up all that crap about Margaret B. Sanger or abortion being ‘sold to black people as healthcare’ in the first place.

You’re just restating your former points, not addressing the new ones I made. I told you, NOT all doctors provide the same services as PRCs. Sure, maybe both can provide ultrasounds, but no, both do not provide things like housing, baby care supplies, counseling, etc. You’re also…still ignoring the fact that I addressed your claim about volunteers and how they actually do have to abide by federal regulations when offering medical services. You’re also still ignoring what I actually said about adoption and it’s alleged ‘‘justification.’

 And you’re just restating your point about white neighborhoods, AND restating my counter argument involving percentages without addressing how that argument actually applies. 

I’ll counter, again, the only thing you said which actually tried to answer me: “Doesn’t matter if the majority of the population is white or not.” Actually, yes, it does, in the context of where abortion clinics choose to establish themselves and whether or not they’re purposely targeting black people to sell their services to. It is not an accident that they look for the highest concentration of minorities in majority-white neighborhoods. That is a direct connection to the other fact: that the highest percentage of children killed in an abortion clinic in this country are black. Factor that in with Planned Parenthoid’s racist origins, and you’d have to be sticking your head in the sand not to see the racist implications. Not because I view the women of color as breeding stock. Because abortion clinics treat them as breeding stock. That is my argument. You’re the one who made it about me, because you couldn’t refute my actual points.

I’ll say it again, to give you opportunity to respond: You started making a distinction about black people when it comes to abortion, not me. You started making truth claims about which party cares about pregnant women. Within the context that you started this with, which was black people and parties that care about pregnant women, I brought up Margaret Sanger. Because she is relevant. You introduced:

A) The idea that anti-abortion parties don’t care about women

B) The example of a black woman having to go across states to get an abortion, wherein abortion was represented as a type of care in contrast to the alleged “‘lack of care” that anti-abortion parties have

C) Planned Parenthood, who provided that alleged care when anti-abortion parties, such as the Louisiana leaders, wouldn’t.

When you introduced A, B, and C, I followed right on track with the same topics. You began this debate as if race were a factor. I just picked up where you left off. And you continue to make most of your argument about whether or not I’m racist, and re-stating your points as if mine were not countering them, as if all you need to do is repeat yourself. 

Finally, you continue to dodge counters to your supporting arguments and return to make your “overarching point:” that what a black woman (again, you’re the one who made that distinction in the first place) does with her own reproduction is her business and so me and anyone who doesn’t like it should shut up and mind our own businesses.

But I’m not arguing with your overarching point. Because sure , when you say “reproductive rights,” that phrase, sociologically and scientifically can mean a few different choices that I wouldn’t want to have any control over or say in, such as: whether or not a woman decides to conceive a baby. That’s her business. How many babies a woman wants to conceive; that’s her business. How she raises or determines her own future in relation to children or sex life; that’s her business.

But abortion is not part of her reproductive rights, because abortion is murder of a separate human. Abortion is stepping outside of the realm of “what happens the the single human body of the woman” and into a realm where two humans are being affected. One, against its will—the innocent, entirely helpless baby who never asked to allegedly “impose” on the mother by existing in the first place. But it’s not that baby who is protected and offered choices once it does exist. It is the woman who is given the choice to murder. 

And that’s when it becomes my business. 

Glad you dropped the Bible verses and the BS claim about me "attacking” your character.

Yes, if you choose to bring up the black population specifically then the people within that population who can give birth - women with my skin color, are a part of the conversation. We’ve been over this.

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion deates and then want to ignore the women of that race and their experiences.

You trying to act like PRCs care about pregnant people for providing counseling or housing when there are actual counselors with training and experience and housing that can be obtained through governmental services (which most pro-lifers literally vote against because most of them are conservatives who despise welfare and social programs - as well as paying the taxes to pay for those things) is not unique.

Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.

Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.

You pressuring or forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of what they want when they’re the one who’s pregnant, is treating them as breeding stock. For someone who’s so obsessed with abortion clinics, because you think they’re targeting minorities, you’re no better than they are.

The fact that you chose to pivot to Margaret B Sanger when I was talking about a particular black woman who was negatively impacted because of anti-abortion policy shows how easily you disregard minorities when it’s convenient. And no, the harm that was done to her was not “alleged.” She publicly told everyone about her entire experience, and she has a right to be upset.

You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights. Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.

Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent. Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is. Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. Simple.

You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.

When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice. If they want to kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

I don’t know how I missed this. But wow. I literally had to double-check and make sure that this reblog was in response to me, because of how blatantly and insistently you keep changing what I have said AND what you, yourself, have said. 

I mean, you might as well be arguing with a completely different user who had entirely different arguments than mine. Let’s review. 

This is you. Bringing up “black women,” first, in the very first post of this whole thread. 

Again, let me say it as clearly as possible: you started the conversation. And you made it about black women. Like I said, HERE:

Then, somehow, you still manage to try and argue this:

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion debates and then want to ignore women of that race and their experiences. 

What are you doing? What are you talking about? @prettyvintageafternoon , can you see this? Can you see that you are the one who brought up race, and then called me a racist, and are now acting like I’m the one who brought it up? 

“Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.”

Again, what are you talking about? Who asked them to kiss my feet? You already tried this. You already said PRCs “expect a pat on the back,” and I already said, “nobody’s asking for that.” We’ve done this already. For the final time:

YOU claimed that PRCs do not care. I refuted that with examples of services that they offer. And you are somehow claiming that just because they’re offering services that others offer, that negates it as proof of their care. That’s like saying, “the soup kitchen in the South does not care about homeless people, because you can buy soup at the store.” 

But we’ve already been through this. Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. Can you hear me? Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. What I am saying is that you cannot prove your original claim, which is that they don’t care. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. 

“Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing, or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.”

Seriously, @prettyvintageafternoon, can you actually follow any of what I’m actually saying, or are you just going to keep arguing against someone who isn’t here? Someone you made up? 

prettyvintageafternoon. Margaret B Sanger IS the proof that Planned Parenthood is targeting people to walk inside. That was not a pivot. THAT was my proof that black people are being targeted. That, and the clinic’s location in relation to the disproportionate minority populations. 

That was my response to you talking about a particular black woman. It was totally in the natural flow of your argument: YOU brought up that she was black, and that abortion was care that she was receiving, and withholding it was harmful. I responded by saying, “no, Planned Parenthood is not caring for black people like the one you’re talking about, because it is very demonstrably targeting black people, and here are two proofs of how.” 

Now this is getting so repetitive and nonsensical. You have done nothing but repeat yourself or argue with a straw man. For the final time, if you actually want to stand up for what you believe in, and against what I’m actually saying, then stand up against what I’m ACTUALLY saying. Can you respond to these counter arguments—these counter arguments, right here—or not?

• There are more than one type of Pregnancy Resource Center, and all of the ones that offer medical services which qualify for complying with HIPPA, DO comply with HIPPA. So you lied. 
• Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative only to murdering children. 
• When the biggest percentage of a population is white, then no matter where an abortion clinic is set up, it will be in a “predominantly white” area—but that does not mean that it is not also in the largest concentrations of minorities. That is what “minority” means. Therefore: Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate amount of clinics within walking distance to minority-concentrated neighborhoods, indicating racial targeting. 
• Christianity was in Ethiopia long before the slave-traders who claimed to be Christians.

Can you, or can’t you, actually refute what I actually said? Because if you can’t, then everyone reading this is not seeing you stand up for what you believe in. They are seeing you repeat yourself, dodge the counterarguments, and hide behind straw men. 

While you’re doing that, I’ll actually be responding to the new truth claims you brought up. 

“You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights.  Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.”

This is silly. You don’t get to decide that reproductive rights include any of the things you just listed—most importantly, killing the child. Good job, you summarized the debate topic. So now what?

“Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent.  Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is.  Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent.  Simple.”

How in the world can you omnisciently claim that every pregnant woman is also an innocent woman? What are you talking about? Innocent of what, exactly? Sex? You’re making an argument I’m not making. I never posited that sex was a punishable offense, and that the punishment must always be letting a child live. 

Children are not punishments. Innocence is not in reference to the absence or presence of sex. And for the record, the fault of rape is the rapists. Not the pregnant woman’s—and not the baby’s resulting from the rape. 

I can claim that any and all fetuses are innocent because it has made zero choices. It can’t. It is, by definition, dependent and defenseless. But you don’t get to claim that about pregnant women everywhere—because they all make choices, and you have absolutely zero way of knowing if those choices were good, bad, right, wrong, criminal, etc., universally. 

So what you’re doing here—let’s be so clear—what you’re doing here is believing a narrative that every woman who walks into an abortion clinic with the intent to murder has never made a morally wrong or criminal decision—AND you are implying that this means they can murder children—AND you are implying that children are a punishment that a woman who must carry a child to term is subjected to unjustly. That’s exactly what you’re doing, just to be clear. 

You’re absolutely right: no THING should get to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. But guess what. A baby is not a “THING” like a tumor or a wart or a cyst. A baby is a human being. And by being a human being, it has rights. And those rights are “you don’t get to kill me, just because my existence is dependent on you, or because your situation is tragic.”

How’s that for simple?

“You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.”

So be it. Me telling someone that they can’t cut their five year-old toddler apart with a knife, whether they like it or not, whether I know their medical history or how that five year-old toddler is affecting their health, would probably also be imposing. But that’s how justice and right and wrong work. If you want to murder, just people are going to impose upon you not to do it. That’s the argument here. You wanna argue against that? 

“When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice.  If they want to kick you out, you gotta go.  If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.”

This is the most tired, broke, sad reasoning I’ve ever seen. And it’s just lazy. 

You’re telling me, first of all, that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?

Really? 

Autonomy is defined as “the ability to make an informed, uncoerced decision,” or, in terms of personal sustainability, someone who does not need someone else’s resources to survive.

So I’ll ask you again. Is that what you really believe? That humans have to meet those requirements, or else their bodies are at the disposal of anyone who does meet those standards? I.E. A pregnant woman can think and make decisions on her own, and can, to some extent, feed and care for herself, therefore she should be allowed to murder a child in the fetus stage who can’t do any of those things?

So how about the woman who’s on SNAP? She’s dependent on the United States Food Stamp Program to supply her with sustenance. She’s not autonomous. She’s dependent. Can the United States rip her apart as soon as she becomes inconvenient? Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all. 

Oh, or are you just talking about bodily? Well, how about the person diagnosed with Alzheimer’s? They are not autonomous. They are dependent on someone else for everything—they can’t even make informed decisions, because information disappears from their minds. Should their caretakers, family members, doctors, rip them apart and murder them? No? Why not? They’re not autonomous. Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

How about if that Alzheimer’s patient was living in their son’s house? Then they got sick with Alzheimer’s and literally couldn’t make the choice to move out, because they can’t remember where they are or what they’re supposed to be doing. No way to make an independent choice for their own safety. You’re arguing that the son should say, “if I wanna kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.” …and you’re arguing, furthermore, that the son should not just “kick the Alzheimer’s parent out,” but has every right to grab a machete and start hacking that Alzheimer’s parent to pieces, or poison them, then suck the body parts out of their house. After all, bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

How about a three year-old child? Too young to understand sex, dependent on adults to feed and clothe and care for them. Should those adults get to do whatever they want with that kid?  Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

All you really mean is, anyone who can be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman (I.e. a child who cannot speak up for or defend itself, or even choose to flee the womb) should be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman. 

That’s what you’re saying. Is that what you genuinely want to be saying? Assuming you even respond to what I actually said.

First of all, if you’re talking about reproduction in within the black population then yes, black women are automatically included in the conversation. How you thought otherwise is beyond me.

Second, if you’re going to bitch and moan about being called a racist, you need to look at the words that you used.

"I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

…Yes, those were your words. If you’re racist, at least be woman enough to say you are and stop acting indignant when other people call you out on it.

Third, yes - I did respond and say that Crisis Pregnancy Centers are not unique for offering services that can be obtained at other places. Furthermore, most Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not follow HIPPA. That’s a fact. And even the ones who do follow HIPPA are pretty questionable, apparently, since a woman had to get one of her fallopian tubes removed after being told that her ectopic pregnancy was viable not too long ago. The main point of a Crisis Pregnancy Center is to pressure women to continue their pregnancies by any means necessary, regardless of any risk to the person who is pregnant.

Any time you are so desperate to pressure others to continue their pregnancy that you set up shoddy alternatives to actual clinics and give people faulty medical advice, you cannot claim that you are acting in the best interest of that patient. Period. And before you ask, “faulty medical advice” includes the following (and yes, CPCs have done these).

• Incorrectly reading ultrasounds
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of mental health problems
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of breast cancer
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of infertility
• Offering abstinence-only education

It’s one thing to offer services to pregnant women. If they take them, that’s up to them. It’s another to intentionally place yourself near abortion clinics to lure people, posture yourself as medical alternative and then tell them things that are not scientifically true and/or tell them things about their pregnancy which are not true, which can put their life at risk.

On the subject of adoption, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. If someone is going to adopt a kid, someone else has to carry a pregnancy to term successfully for that to be possible. I don’t care how many women have infertility issues or how many have had miscarriages, it is not the responsibility of an individual to pop out babies so that someone else can have their pick of the litter and choose which child they want to add to their “perfect family.” Someone who is viably fertile and pregnant doesn’t owe you anything. If someone wants a kid, they can pay or adopt a baby. You do not get to treat someone as a free or affordable breeder because you are desperate for a child. End of story.

In response to your argument about Planned Parenthood targeting minorities, being within walking distance =/= targeting someone. Aside from the fact that most Planned Parenthood locations are in majority white neighborhoods and the fact that not all Planned Parenthood locations even offer abortion as a service, being within walking distance of someone does not mean you’re targeting them. If I’m hungry and I want a salad, I can drive right past the McDonald’s nearest to me, go to WalMart and buy my desired vegetables. If someone wants an abortion, they’re going to go to someone who offers that service. That’s literally why women leave states that aren’t abortion-prohibitive to get to places that offer abortion (like Nancy Davis did, whose story you easily disregarded because it wasn’t convenient for your narrative).

Also, Margaret B Sanger did not create Planned Parenthood to target black Americans. Planned Parenthood did not even start offering abortion until after Roe v Wade. She did create birth control clinics and popularized the term “birth control.” Abortion has existed long before her, and despite any problematic opinions that she may have held, anti-abortion zealots like you acting like she’s the boogeyman of the black community in order to justify stripping black people who reproduce of their reproductive rights is laughable.

People want the services that they want. That’s something that “pro-lifers” like you have never understood with regard to conversations about abortion-access. You, a non-black person consistently arguing that abortion is “SoLd tO bLaCk pEoPle As HeAlThCare” literally shows how comfortable you feel infantilizing minorities.

Black people, black woman included, do not need you to ‘save us’ or ‘protect us’ from our own reproductive decisions. We can make our own choices, different though they may be depending on which black person you speak to. People in the anti-abortion movement have been using us as an anti-abortion talking point for years, despite a majority of black people not voting for anti-abortion politicians (most of which are conservative), supporting reproductive justice organizations and campaigns (which do include abortion access), etc.

On the subject of Christianity, you bringing up Ethiopia does not dismiss the history of Christians using their religion as a means to justify enslavement or treating black people as less than them. It does not take away from Christians giving versions of the Bible to enslaved people and cutting out stories like Moses’ in order to discourage rebellion. It does not take away from Christian slave owners using their religion to teach slaves to be obedient to them as Christians are to their God. Christianity has played a huge role in the mistreatment of black people within the confines of American history. You, trying to proselytize to me earlier on this conversation and lecture me with your religious beliefs (which had nothing to do with the conversation) does not change any of that.

“Children are not punishments.”

Tell that to the person that you see in the mirror, along with every single anti-abortion advocate who tells women to close their legs, during any abortion-related conversation. You people use forced pregnancy as a means to punish people who have sex constantly. You “pro-lifers” are notorious for that.

If children weren’t punishments to “pro-lifers” like you, you wouldn’t force other people to have them.

Next, your argument about “innocence.” Pro-lifers like you bellyache about “innocent babies being slaughtered” - especially when standing outside places that you think offer abortion, to emotionally manipulate and pressure someone who is pregnant into carrying that pregnancy to term. Y'all are the same people who take photos of people walking into clinics, shout at them, etc. It’s the reason why a lot of places that offer abortion have clinic escorts because people who think like you like to harass patients.

Yes, I did say that pregnant women are also innocent. Unless having sex inside of wedlock or outside of it is suddenly a crime, yes - the pregnant person is innocent.

You saying “the rape is fault of the rapist” is a strawman. I didn’t argue otherwise and neither has any other pro-choice advocate. If someone is forcibly impregnated against their will and they decide to keep their pregnancy, that is their choice. They are well within their rights to do that. Anti-abortion zealots like you forcing a victim of sexual assault to carry a pregnancy to term, if they do not want to, is punishing them for being assaulted.

“You’re telling me that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?”

Yes.

That’s how that works. Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand.

Someone who uses a governmental service is not…comparable to a fetus. They’ve already been born and they can remove themselves from that governmental program. That is not remotely the same thing as using someone’s body for 9 months (best case scenario) in order to stay alive.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

A three year old child has also already been born. Killing a three year old is murder - actual murder, not just what anti-abortion weirdos like you call murder. It’s legal murder, which involves the presence of premeditated malice. A woman who gets an abortion is not a murderer. A woman who stabs a 3 year old in the chest very much is. Easy difference to understand, for the rest of us who have functioning braincells.

Comparing a fetus to various racial groups, alzherimers patients, actual children is not the argument that you think it is. It actually makes you look intellectually lazy, which I expect from you at this point.

No “human being” gets to use someone’s body to sap nutrients from or grow against that person’s will. If you want to treat fetuses like everybody else, fine. We will hold them to the same standard.

Also, most abortions are medication abortions and most abortions happen within the first trimster. You arguing that “BaBiEs ArE bEiNg RiPpEd ApArT” is not only not factual, it’s also emotionally manipulative. There are no bodies being ripped apart.

Overall, my beliefs are the following.

1. People are entitled to make their own reproductive decisions, which includes abortion
2. Black people are not the horse on which the anti-abortion movement gets to ride on to justify forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term
3. Nobody owes someone else a kid to adopt just because they’re viably fertile or pregnant
4. If you, especially as a non-black person, support forcing a black person to carry a pregnancy to term because you think they need to breed to maintain their racial population, you are racist. Black people, black women in particular, are not breeders to fulfill any type of racial quota.

@prettyvintageafternoon

…You either have no capability of following an argument, or, you know you cannot refute my claims, so you’re ignoring them in favor of repeating yourself.

I gave you a list of my points for you to respond to, in plain English. Nice and neat, in one place. And did you respond? Nope.

You used some of the words in that list of points to pretend like you were addressing them, but actually, you just went back over what you’ve already said. Or, you began arguing against something that I never said. Which is the definition of a straw man argument.

Look. If you can’t understand what I’m saying, that’s one thing. But if you can’t refute what I’m actually saying, the words that are actually written down, why waste time repeating yourself? I’m certainly not going to. I’ve done that enough, here, and you either can’t read what I’m saying, or you don’t want to address it. That’s clear. I’m willing to bet you just don’t want to address it. That’s what your repeated "pivot” to calling me racist, assuming my race, and other red herrings and straw men seem to indicate.

But here’s something I’ll ask in plain English, in response to your claim, and just leave it open-ended. Then we’ll see if you can finally directly respond, or if you’ll just keep doing what you’ve been doing. At least the people who bother to read this will be able to see who can reason and argue, and who can’t.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

No, prettyvintageafternoon. NOT like “everyone else.” For some reason, even though you just admitted that an Alzheimer’s patient, like a fetus, has no ability to make their own decisions, and is dependent on their next of kin, like a fetus–they don’t get to have “various legal protections.” They’re torn apart in the womb because they’re inconvenient, burdensome, and/or scary to the woman carrying them.

it’s literally the same scenario. The differences are, an Alzheimer’s patient is near to the end of their life at the time that they cannot make their own decisions. A fetus, if they weren’t aborted, would be at the beginning of theirs. You’re literally proving my point. There is no philosophical, ethical, or reasonable difference between an Alzheimer’s-afflicted parent dependent on their next of kin and a fetus dependent on their mother. Except that we allow and encourage the murder of one, by the millions, and protect the other.

And yes. Bodies are being ripped apart in abortions. Arms. Legs. It is literally a common form of abortion. It’s not the only one, and some states have outlawed it, but it’s one of them. When a child in the womb has reached a certain stage of development, they have to dismember it through the use of forceps in order to remove all traces of the pregnancy from the mother–have you ever actually studied abortion? Your ignorance is showing.

First of all, I have responded to everything you said. Your logic is not sound enough to come up with a rebuttal. That is your problem.

"I never claimed not to be racist.”

Your words. If you don’t like being called racist, don’t type sentences with a double negatives implying that you are. And don’t use minorities as an anti-abortion talking point because you think that we’re too stupid to make our own reproductive decisions without your input.

Does every black woman choose to get an abortion? No. Does every black woman choose to have children? No. Does any of that have to do with you, as someone who is not them? Absolutely not.

A black person getting abortion or choosing to have kids is their choice. Not yours.

Now, onto your bullshit argument about comparing fetuses to Alzheimer’s patients.

An Alzheimers patient is not a fetus.

The fact that “pro-lifers” like you have to compare fetuses to living, breathing people in order to make an argument proves that you cannot argue honestly.

An Alzheimer’s patient has already been born, and because of that and the fact that they cannot make their own decisions, their next-of-kin is the one who speaks with their doctor and caregivers and/or takes care of them by themself.

So no, someone’s body is comparable to a retirement home or special medical care facility. Caring for an older person who has been born is not comparable to carrying a pregnancy to term for 9 months, which has risk for the person who is pregnant.

Also, not all Alzheimers patients are older. Most are, but not all.

You keep using words like “inconvenient” and “burdensome” in the context of pregnancy because it’s easier for you to imply that pregnancy is an easy, passive process rather than something that physically damages the pregnant person’s body and carries medical risk.

And you lied. A majority of abortions are medication abortions (using mifepristone and misopristol) and a majority of abortions take place within the first trimester - before arms and legs are formed. Most late-term take place due to medical reasons, primarily when the pregnancy is no longer viable. Nobody is waiting until the day before they go into labor to shrug and say “I don’t want this pregnancy anymore. Let me go get an abortion” - despite what people like you want to believe.

If you want to argue about stripping bodily autonomy from another person, I suggest you do so honestly or stop bitching.

artist-issues:

prettyvintageafternoon:

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eternal-echoes:

prettyvintageafternoon:

White supremacy is not just burning crosses on people’s lawn. It’s non-black people thinking they have paternal ownership over black people and their bodies, which is what you are doing.

This entire idea that ‘pro-lifers’ like you have made up in your head about “saving the black race” because you think it’s your place to intervene in black women’s medical decisions is exactly why the anti-abortion movement is trash. Black women are already the most likely to die in childbirth in the United States - particularly in anti-abortion states, and you think that you’re saving us by criminalizing abortion?

Please leave black women’s wombs alone.

You are not helping us.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful to provide more pregnancy medical resources to African American women so they don’t have to die in childbirth, rather than encouraging them to kill their own children?

I-

…

The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.

Most of you are conservatives who don’t even want to pay taxes. But pro-lifers care about spending time and money to provide medical resources to pregnant women?

Please.

Politicians who are elected by people who think like you don’t even want to talk about maternal mortality with regard to black women. For example, Louisiana is one of the worst states in the entire country for maternal mortality, and Senator Bill Cassidy - a Republican ‘pro-lifer" who represents this state, essentially said that if you ‘adjust for race’ then their maternal mortality rates aren’t that bad.

If you are pro-life and that state that you are paid to represent has some of the worst maternal mortality rates for a particular group of women and you choose to disregard that, you’re in no position to make medical decisions for that group.

Period.

And then there are the cases where black women’s doctors can’t even provide care because of people like you. There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New York for an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.

The fetus inside of her did not have a brain or a skull. It was not going to survive.

Any time a doctor responsible for their black patient is too scared to do their job because they fear fanatics like you throwing them in prison, that’s a problem.

So no. You anti-abortion psychos have had more than enough time - in the half a century that you have spent trying overturn legal protections for women’s medical privacy, to provide medical resources for marginalized women.

You people did not do that.

You people have spent all your time and energy crafting anti-abortion laws to incarcerate women (because the anti-abortion movement loves punishment), threatening medical professionals with jail time or removal of their hard-earned certifications, yelling at people outside of Planned Parenthood locations when you don’t know why they are there, calling women whores for having sex lives you don’t agree with and just sticking your nose in other people’s business.

Black women did not call you and say “Bestie, please make it possible to arrest me for murder if I get an abortion. 🤪”

You want to be a “savior for the black race” without doing any substantive work.

Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.

Here we go again! If you want to keep telling people who they can and can’t argue with and what they can and can’t talk about (quoting you: “Leave black women and their medical decisions alone.”) you can go ahead and do that. Doesn’t mean we have to obey you. 

What you’re saying is simply not true. First off:

“The anti-abortion movement does not care about providing resources to pregnant women at all.”

You really shouldn’t use phrases like “at all” when you’re trying to argue facts. Because that’s absolutely not true. In 2019 alone, pregnancy resource centers served two million pregnant women. They provide holistic resources as well as donations. They offer pregnancy tests, STD testing, ultrasounds, housing, and educational resources as well as assistance applying for Medicaid, WICs and SNAPS.

There are more than 70,000 PRC workers in this nation alone, 12% of whom are working on a non-paid, volunteer basis to provide care for pregnant women, and more than 10,000 of them are licensed medical professionals. 

And if good will and volunteer work are not proof enough for you, millions of dollars are spent toward providing resources to pregnant women. 

Those resources are just not “kill the baby.” 

So you’re very wrong. While some anti-abortion-claiming people might not care about providing resources, you can’t say all anti-abortion people don’t care. 

“There was a black woman in Baton Rouge by the name of Nancy Davis who had to go to a Planned Parenthood in New Yorkfor an abortion procedure because her doctor was too scared of being prosecuted because of anti-abortion laws.”

I’ll bet Nancy Davis did have to go to New York for an abortion. Because according to New York City Health Department reports, there are thousands more specifically black babies aborted in that city alone than there are born—and that’s been the case for years. 

Couple that with your Planned Parenthood name drop? You must not realize this, or you wouldn’t be mentioning it—Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was one of the most vile racists in our country’s history. You want to talk about white supremacy and trying to control others? This is a quote from her, to a friend in a letter in December of 1939: 

“We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” 

She was actively trying to manipulate African-American pastors into arguing for eugenics that would contribute to the murder of their children from the pulpit. Margaret Sanger even wrote a book called “‘The Pivot of Civilization” where she  argued for the weeding out of “unfit” people groups—which she specifically defined as anyone poor, sick, disabled, or in a minority. 

Abortion, in this country, does not have it’s roots in helping black people. It has it’s roots in killing black people off, one baby at a time, and selling it to them as “health care.” 

In reality, across the world, including in pro-life countries like Poland or in Chile, every time pro-life laws are passed, maternal mortality drops. There is a solid correlation between the two. 

But this all comes back to the last issue we discussed, and that is this—

The fact that Margaret Sanger was a racist trying to commit genocide against black people and used the invention of Planned Parenthood abortion clinics to do it; the fact that the black population in America remains low while the percentage of black children that are murdered is skyrocketing; the fact that abortion clinics specifically and disproportionately are established within walking distance of communities with higher populations of minorities; ALL OF THESE FACTS point to racism when you realize that, (no matter what you believe about the fetus’ validity as a life) the black population is shrinking in America. And it is doing so because you’re aborting your children, because they’re targeting you. You’re buying the propaganda telling you that killing your children is healthcare.

It isn’t. It’s murder. It’s murder, tending toward genocide. 

Only 0.15% of all abortions performed in America can be considered necessary to save the life of the mother. Let me state that again: less than 1% of all the children murdered are murdered to save the life of the mother.

You can’t claim “we people” don’t care about pregnant women when we’re the ones offering aid, begging black women to stop allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the money hungry business of abortion-providers, and engaging in debates like this on the Internet with actual facts. I mean, you can claim that. You’d just be incorrect. Like you were above.

Here’s the other thing, @prettyvintageafternoon. Human life has intrinsic worth and value from conception because God (Yahweh, of the Bible) assigns that worth and value to us. That same God cares infinitely more about you, about pregnant women, about black people, than I ever could. And He’s the only one who can both administer justice to the innocent, and redeem the guilty. He heals the hurt and restores the broken. So if you, yourself, are living as the lord and master over your own life, I’m not ashamed to beg you: please stop. Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as Lord of your life. He’ll make you new. Just like He’s going to make all of this division and mess new, eventually. 

My God.

“…Doesn’t mean we have to obey you.”

You are so arrogant, it’s ridiculous. You think black people are just things for you to save, when we didn’t even ask for your presence.

Again, black women did not ask for you to take away our bodily autonomy. You just feel the need to do that so you can be savior.

All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.

The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.

(Source)

The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.

The anti-abortion is not here to serve people.

And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.

The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.

(Source)

So no, abortion clinics are not coming for black people. They’re not posting ads telling black people (or anybody else for that matter), “Hey, you need an abortion!” That’s a lie that white people like you choose to believe so you can feel needed.

And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.

And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.

Which of us is telling the other how she thinks, how she feels, and generalizing both motives and actions based on limited information? Which of us is making character assumptions based on a total lack of personal knowledge? You don’t know anything about me except what I just said–that I have beliefs about abortion and a worldview that is different than yours, and yet you are assuming my race, my opinion of you, and my innermost motivations.

But I’m the one who’s being controlling? @prettyvintageafternoon , you are the one assuming and generalizing and refusing to do your own “research.”

But I’m not here to get into a name-calling battle with you.

“All of the resources that you just named are things that licensed medical professionals already do for their patients, and unlike you - they don’t pat themselves on the back for it. You’re not special for providing an ultrasound.”

Let’s just skip right over the fact that I never said I was special for providing an ultrasound. Because you’re right, “licensed medical professionals” (by which I’ll assume, based on tonal argument, that you mean “licensed medical professionals who DO NOT work for PRCs,” because I just said that 12% of PRC workers are licensed medical professionals) don’t always pay themselves on the back for providing services. No. Instead, they get paid. And most PRC workers are volunteers.

Secondly, not all non-PRC licensed medical professionals offer all of the services I just described. Because not all of them are licensed to do all of the separate tasks I just described.

And ALL OF your above paragraph is not only taking my words in a different direction, but it’s besides the point. You made a truth claim: that anti-abortion people do not care about pregnant women “at all.” I disproved that truth claim BY SAYING that if anti-abortion organizations did not care, there would not be PRCs offering the aforementioned services. I answered your truth claim. You’re trying to swerve off-topic by accusing PRC workers/me of “patting ourselves on the back” and feeling “special for providing an ultrasound.” In reality, none of that has any bearing on what we’re talking about, so let’s get back to the point.

“The Crisis Pregnany Centers run by PEOPLE LIKE YOU are the same places that post up next to real clinics, and purposefully lie to patients to get them in the door. The false aid from these centers has gotten so bad that Google, the biggest search engine in the world, has started to flag them because they purposefully pose as abortion providers.”

What “real clinics?” Abortion clinics? Here we get down to it–for some reason, you get to decide which medical licenses professionals are “real?” If they’re not providing abortions, they’re not providing care? Or are you saying “real clinics” comparatively? Because there are more than one kind of Pregnancy Resource Center. Some are medically licensed as an establishment, and some are no more medically licensed than a soup kitchen and therefore would be held to different standards based on services offered.

Where’s your source for the “purposeful lies to get pregnant women in the door?” Where’s your source for supposed “false aid?”

As far as Google itself as a source, you do realize that Google is a corporation? Google is not an objective fact-presenting platform. It is a business. Therefore just because Google “flags” something does not mean that I should take their word as reflective of objective fact and absolute truth. I mean, not even university professors asking for sources cited on academic papers will accept Google’s “flagging” as a reliable source, in most instances.

But that doesn’t even matter. Again, it’s not a problem worth addressing. PRCs were brought up as en example of care offered by anti-abortion people, a group you were erroneously stating “does not care about pregnant women at all.” I’m just pointing out that your counterpoints are not only off-topic, but poorly supported.

“The fact that YOU PEOPLE go so far to make trash centers like this, knowing that they don’t have to abide by HIPAA regulations because most of these places do not have medical professionals staffed to serve pregnant people illustrates my whole point.”

This is very untrue in several senses. 1) You have no idea whether or not every anti-abortion supporter knows your proposed fact, “that they don’t have to abide by HIPPA regulations.” You have no idea of that. You’re just assuming a whole group of people’s motives and intent without any source to back it up.

2) This is an incredibly disingenuous, misleading way to phrase your point. You make it sound like all PRCS offer health services (by using the vague word “serve”) which are not regulated by HIPPA. But in actuality, ONLY PRCs that do not ever claim to offer medical services directly do not need to be regulated by HIPPA…just like a baseball team wouldn’t need to be regulated by HIPPA. Because a baseball team is not, nor DID IT EVER CLAIM TO BE, staffed by licensed medical professionals. The fact that some PRCS do have licensed medical professionals working for them means that those practitioners are absolutely regulated by both HIPPA and state legislature. So, sure, some PRCs aren’t regulated by HIPPA, but they’re the ones that wouldn’t need to be, because they’re not offering health care any more than a soup kitchen is, and they never claimed to be.

“And because you feel the need to give yourself a pat on the back (because you think you’re not racist for seeing black women as breeders for our race), I don’t need white women like you to “educate me” about Margaret Sanger.

Black women are already aware of who Margaret Sanger is. We are tired of white people like you using her as justification to take away our reproductive decisions.“

It doesn’t matter how big or red a font you use–you better stop speaking for all black people. Not all black women know who Margaret Sanger is. I didn’t. My friends didn’t. My classmates didn’t. Saying that black women already know these facts is an outright lie. It might be more accurate to say you already knew that, sure.

Secondly, I absolutely do not see all black women as “breeders of your race.” You’re the one who read that into what I was actually saying, which is simply logical: without mothers, there is no continuation of any living organism. That is fact. That is reality. But the word “breeders” which I never said, which YOU assumed, adds a connotation to it that makes it sound like I’m limiting, comparing, or reducing the black woman to a specimen of animal needed to continue the species. That was absolutely not the point of what I said, and you 100% know it. You’re rephrasing what I say and outright twisting the words to lie and assume my motive.

I didn’t say black women were breeders. I said that black children are being murdered disproportionately to their birth rate. I said that Margaret Sanger was specifically targeting the black community to exterminate them and founded Planned Parenthood to do it. In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist. You sure are arguing with a person who isn’t even there. You sure are projecting a debate opponent from your imagination onto me, because none of what I’ve said has provided proof of your truth claims about what I am or what I believe or even what I claim.

And guess what else? Nobody’s arguing to “take away your reproductive decisions” here, in this debate between me and you. I am arguing to take away your state-given ability to murder another human being. And no amount of you re-phrasing or twisting my words can make the issue any more or any less about that.

Margaret Sanger was a racist and her racist work is not only thriving, it’s celebrated. That’s a fact. That’s quantifiable by current and historical data. It is truth; I don’t have to use it for anything. It just is.

“The fact that you think black pastors were “manipulated” by some white woman and that I’m buying “propaganda” shows how you see black people - as simple objects that are easily misled by others and need you to save us.

Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.“

It doesn’t show how I see all black people. It shows how I see the decisions made by SOME black people, and it shows how effective the historical founders of eugenics’ methods were.

Because actually, not all black people think the way you do. And it’s pretty revealing of you, yourself, that you, again, think you can speak for all black people AND assume my intentions and character at the same time. You’re the one relegating all black people to believing the same thing as yourself.

Additionally, I said “she was actively TRYING to manipulate black ministers.” I did not make any comment on whether or not she succeeded.

You sure are projecting a debate opponent who isn’t actually here onto me. You sure are arguing against points I never made. Why are you doing that?

“Had you done your research, you would know that a majority of abortion clinics are located in neighborhoods that are mostly white.”

This is, again, disingenuous and misleading, either of you or of the source you’re citing. Because the truth is, only 13.6% of the country is made up of black people. In fact, to include other ethnicities, here’s the government census:

White people make up more than half of the total U.S. population. So of course any abortion clinic that is within walking distance of a community with high amounts of ethnic-minority population is ALSO going to be located “in neighborhoods that are mostly white.” Because everything’s “mostly white,” according to our national census percentages. Even the highest concentrations of minorities will still be outnumbered by whites in most communities. That doesn’t change the fact that abortion clinics are within walking distance of minority-heavy communities.

So again, sure, what you’re saying SOUNDS like abortion clinics aren’t being racist. But when you look at the whole picture and don’t completely ignore their historical origins to boot, they definitely are racist.

Here’s a source for that. I DID do my research. Listen, the racism of the abortion industry, especially Planned Parenthood, is a well-documented fact. It is undeniable. I’m happy to argue that point from several other directions, because there’s no shortage of proof.

“And now all of a sudden, you care about businesses being money-hungry? You were literally justifying for-profit adoption agencies in another thread saying that they are “better than abortion” when we were talking, so miss me with the nonsense.“

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are better than abortion is one truth claim.

Saying that for-profit adoption agencies are justified in collecting a profit because they are an alternative to abortion is ANOTHER, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TRUTH CLAIM THAT I NEVER MADE.

I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry. But the context of our discussion on this thread was “care,” which is arguably more noticeable when money is not a consideration in the conduct of the care-giver, so I brought that up as a compare-contrast. Again, you’re trying to assault my character, motive, and even assign me a race in order to discount my arguments without doing the work of actually counter-arguing.

So miss me with that nonsense.

“And then you try to preach to me (because Christians cannot resist proselytizing).

“Proselytizing” carries the connotation of a crusader forcing someone to pretend to believe something at sword point, or a charlatan manipulating someone with false promises. I’m doing neither. I can’t force you to believe something, and I can’t trick you into faith. That’s not how it works, and I never claimed it was.

If you mean, “Christians can’t help giving testimony,” then yeah, no, we can’t. Acts 4:20: “for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

If you were walking towards a land mine with no way of knowing it was there, but I had been warned about the land mine beforehand and saw you about to die, I would do the same thing I’m doing now: I’d tell you what I knew. You’re saying I should just let you walk toward the land mine, shrug my shoulders, and say, “hey, it’s no business of mine what they believes about the ground they walk on.”

No. I won’t. And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing. What nonsense.

The same God that you worship is the same one that people who like you used to justify enslaving people who look like me.

You’re very, very wrong about this. In more ways than one. First off, “people like me?” Like who? Like Christian’s? Like white people?

What makes you think I’m white? You don’t know my race. You could claim to because I don’t agree with certain things, but that’s wouldn’t be evidence of anything but your own profiling.

But that’s not as important at all as what you believe about the God of the Bible’s connection to slavery.

Yes, many slave traders in U.S. history tried to use the God of the Bible to enslave black people (and other ethnicities.) But guess what? The lead abolitionists used the God of the Bible to abolish slavery, too. Know why?

Because the Bible and the God of the Bible DO NOT condone the American slave trade. Christianity is not a white man’s religion. It’s earliest non-Jewish origins can be traced to this day back to Ethiopia and Asian Antioch. Christianity was in Africa well before the American slave trade was.

You know good and well that just because one group of people uses a particular creed to justify their actions, that does not mean that the creed itself has anything to do with their actions. Not unless the creed LINES UP with those actions. And Biblical Christianity does not line up with the brutal enslavement and degradation of the black community throughout American history.

Get to know the actual God I worship instead of the fallible people claiming to worship Him.

And no, I don’t need your God to ‘make me new’. I am already priceless.

Yes–you are valuable–but you DO need to be made new. He already paid the ultimate price for you.

As I said before, black women are human beings and we can make our own reproductive decisions without you present.

Just leave us alone.“

You sure can make "reproductive” decisions without me, or white people, or whoever you’re referencing, present. But no, I won’t leave anybody alone who is actively advocating for murder. And as long as murder is the decision you’re making, I’ll speak out against it.

This whole conversation is not about you.

You keep centering yourself, your opinions and your wanting to be a savior in other people’s medical care when they did not ask for you. Do not whine to me about your character.

”…You better stop speaking for all black people.“

What exactly do you think you’ve been doing this entire time?

My entire point, since you choose to be willfully ignorant, is that black women can make their own medical decisions - including to have an abortion or not, without you. It’s so simple that even you can understand it.

And yes, when you make the argument that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population, you are arguing that people within the black population who can give birth - black women, need to breed to maintain their race’s numbers.

Your desire to avoid the racist implications of your beliefs is not my problem.

But then again, you pretty much admit that you are racist.

"In fact, you know what? I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”

Thank you for admitting your own lack of character. You did my work for me.

“I also don’t actually care about businesses being money-hungry.”

Thank you for admitting that too. You are so intellectually lazy that you will pose adoption as an abortion alternative and then you choose not to care about the fact that they survive off using poor women’s babies as product, despite you literally saying that you know how screwed up the adoption industry is when we were talking.

And yes, you WERE proselytizing.

“Get to know the God of the Bible, change your mind and agree with Him about who He is and who you are, and submit to Him as the Lord of your life.”

I don’t recall asking you for a sermon. You keep trying to drag me into your religion UNPROVOKED when it had NOTHING to do with the conversation. You’re not saving me from a land mine. You’re actively trying to convert me to your religion when I did not ask you to do so.

“And I’m not going to be made to feel like wanting to save someone if I really believe they’re in danger is somehow a bad thing.”

Here you go! You keep making this conversation about you and your feelings.

And then you bring up abolitionists when that has nothing to do with my point. It does not matter if Christianity isn’t only practiced by white people. People used your religion to enslave people who look like me.

That is a fact.

I do not care about other people’s decision to be Christian. That is their right.

MY POINT is that I am not interested in joining your religion. You can keep it.

“Yes – you are valuable – but you DO need to be made new.”

Notice the use of the word ‘need.’

You see how you keep using authoritative language to try and pull me into a religion that I am not interested in joining? That falls under proselytizing, which is attempting to convert.

“But no, I won’t leave anyone alone who is actively advocating for murder.”

So you acknowledge that black women did not ask for your presence and you still choose to be in our reproductive business?

Just say yes so that we can be done.

Okay, @prettyvintageafternoon, all of that about my religion, my proselytization, my "willful ignorance,” and how I’m making this personal is an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

Now, can you actually answer any of my counter arguments? If you want to stop talking about me, can I suggest that you start with literally…any of the non-me-focused counterarguments I made? The points I made about multiple PRC types? The points I made about adoption agencies as an alternative to abortion being a separate truth claim than their justification (since you mentioned it…again…as if I didn’t just re-address it?) The points I made about the multi-ethnic divisions of population proportions? The points I made about your validation method for “care” or “service” to pregnant women?

Any of those? No?

The only points of mine that you’ve quasi-addressed are the ones that relate to my defense of my own character, or lack thereof (like when I said “I didn’t even claim not to be racist.”)

You’re still actively twisting what I’ve said about murdered black children to mean that I am somehow racist. You’re ignoring anything I have to say that directly refutes your claims about abortion or anti-abortion advocates.

Case in point: I never made the argument “that abortion should be illegal in order to maintain the black population.” I made the argument that abortion clinics don’t care about the black population because they’re killing black children at a higher rate than they’re being born, intentionally, through abortion–and I made that point as a compare/contrast to PRCS, to specifically refute your claim about which party actually cares about pregnant women.

But you took that point and only addressed it in order to make it about whether or not I’m racist. So again–you gonna answer my actual arguments?

As for the only question you’ve actually asked me: yeah, big time, I’ve BEEN acknowledging that black women didn’t ask for me to get involved in this issue. You knew that; don’t know why you think me staying it over and over will make me “be done.”

Because, the thing is, when one person is advocating for murdering another person, (doesn’t matter what gender or race) the right thing to do is for any third parties (me) knowledgeable of the event to do something or say something about it.

So I’m not done. You can be if you feel like it; it’s a free website and, as I said, you really stopped arguing with what I was actually saying a while ago and just started attacking straw men.

Oh, and I guess, if your definition of proselytizing is “making any truth claims about others or the state of the world,” then sure, I was proselytizing. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, you did choose to make this whole conversation personal. You trying to pretend that you’re logical after trying to shove your religion down my throat for the past couple days every time you had an opportunity speaks to your lack of character. You weren’t speaking any kind of truth. You were attempting to convert me when that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Plain and simple.

And yes,

"I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

Those were your words and they represent you very well. I didn’t tell you to type that. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Onto the matter of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, you listed a bunch of services that they offer to women as a form of care. I responded by reminding you that doctors already provide those services. MY POINT is that Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not do anything that medical professionals don’t already do for their patients, so you using the afformentioned services as a way to say PRCs care about pregnant women doesn’t mean much of anything. AND you acknowledged that most of these places are run by volunteers - meaning they don’t have to abide by federal regulations when serving people. That’s a huge problem because pregnancy is a medical situation for the person who is pregnant.

Then you acted like abortion clinics being ‘within walking distance’ of minorities is proof of racism, as if they are forcing people of certain races to use their services. I told you that most abortion clinics are in majority white communities, which is true. Doesn’t matter if white people are a majority of Americans or not. Abortion clinics are not telling black people they need to get abortions, whether you like it or not.

A black woman can get an abortion.

A black woman can have kids.

A black woman can do both of those things if she wants.

That’s not up to me.

All I care about is her choices being available to her.

My overarching point - the reason why I’ve been going back and forth with you, is that what a black woman chooses to do regarding her own reproduction is none of your business or anybody else’s.

Nobody twisted what you said. Your argument had a racist implication and I responded to it.

If race wasn’t relevant to begin with, you wouldn’t have brought up all that crap about Margaret B. Sanger or abortion being ‘sold to black people as healthcare’ in the first place.

You’re just restating your former points, not addressing the new ones I made. I told you, NOT all doctors provide the same services as PRCs. Sure, maybe both can provide ultrasounds, but no, both do not provide things like housing, baby care supplies, counseling, etc. You’re also…still ignoring the fact that I addressed your claim about volunteers and how they actually do have to abide by federal regulations when offering medical services. You’re also still ignoring what I actually said about adoption and it’s alleged ‘‘justification.’

 And you’re just restating your point about white neighborhoods, AND restating my counter argument involving percentages without addressing how that argument actually applies. 

I’ll counter, again, the only thing you said which actually tried to answer me: “Doesn’t matter if the majority of the population is white or not.” Actually, yes, it does, in the context of where abortion clinics choose to establish themselves and whether or not they’re purposely targeting black people to sell their services to. It is not an accident that they look for the highest concentration of minorities in majority-white neighborhoods. That is a direct connection to the other fact: that the highest percentage of children killed in an abortion clinic in this country are black. Factor that in with Planned Parenthoid’s racist origins, and you’d have to be sticking your head in the sand not to see the racist implications. Not because I view the women of color as breeding stock. Because abortion clinics treat them as breeding stock. That is my argument. You’re the one who made it about me, because you couldn’t refute my actual points.

I’ll say it again, to give you opportunity to respond: You started making a distinction about black people when it comes to abortion, not me. You started making truth claims about which party cares about pregnant women. Within the context that you started this with, which was black people and parties that care about pregnant women, I brought up Margaret Sanger. Because she is relevant. You introduced:

A) The idea that anti-abortion parties don’t care about women

B) The example of a black woman having to go across states to get an abortion, wherein abortion was represented as a type of care in contrast to the alleged “‘lack of care” that anti-abortion parties have

C) Planned Parenthood, who provided that alleged care when anti-abortion parties, such as the Louisiana leaders, wouldn’t.

When you introduced A, B, and C, I followed right on track with the same topics. You began this debate as if race were a factor. I just picked up where you left off. And you continue to make most of your argument about whether or not I’m racist, and re-stating your points as if mine were not countering them, as if all you need to do is repeat yourself. 

Finally, you continue to dodge counters to your supporting arguments and return to make your “overarching point:” that what a black woman (again, you’re the one who made that distinction in the first place) does with her own reproduction is her business and so me and anyone who doesn’t like it should shut up and mind our own businesses.

But I’m not arguing with your overarching point. Because sure , when you say “reproductive rights,” that phrase, sociologically and scientifically can mean a few different choices that I wouldn’t want to have any control over or say in, such as: whether or not a woman decides to conceive a baby. That’s her business. How many babies a woman wants to conceive; that’s her business. How she raises or determines her own future in relation to children or sex life; that’s her business.

But abortion is not part of her reproductive rights, because abortion is murder of a separate human. Abortion is stepping outside of the realm of “what happens the the single human body of the woman” and into a realm where two humans are being affected. One, against its will—the innocent, entirely helpless baby who never asked to allegedly “impose” on the mother by existing in the first place. But it’s not that baby who is protected and offered choices once it does exist. It is the woman who is given the choice to murder. 

And that’s when it becomes my business. 

Glad you dropped the Bible verses and the BS claim about me "attacking” your character.

Yes, if you choose to bring up the black population specifically then the people within that population who can give birth - women with my skin color, are a part of the conversation. We’ve been over this.

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion deates and then want to ignore the women of that race and their experiences.

You trying to act like PRCs care about pregnant people for providing counseling or housing when there are actual counselors with training and experience and housing that can be obtained through governmental services (which most pro-lifers literally vote against because most of them are conservatives who despise welfare and social programs - as well as paying the taxes to pay for those things) is not unique.

Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.

Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.

You pressuring or forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of what they want when they’re the one who’s pregnant, is treating them as breeding stock. For someone who’s so obsessed with abortion clinics, because you think they’re targeting minorities, you’re no better than they are.

The fact that you chose to pivot to Margaret B Sanger when I was talking about a particular black woman who was negatively impacted because of anti-abortion policy shows how easily you disregard minorities when it’s convenient. And no, the harm that was done to her was not “alleged.” She publicly told everyone about her entire experience, and she has a right to be upset.

You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights. Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.

Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent. Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is. Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. Simple.

You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.

When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice. If they want to kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

I don’t know how I missed this. But wow. I literally had to double-check and make sure that this reblog was in response to me, because of how blatantly and insistently you keep changing what I have said AND what you, yourself, have said. 

I mean, you might as well be arguing with a completely different user who had entirely different arguments than mine. Let’s review. 

This is you. Bringing up “black women,” first, in the very first post of this whole thread. 

Again, let me say it as clearly as possible: you started the conversation. And you made it about black women. Like I said, HERE:

Then, somehow, you still manage to try and argue this:

I don’t know why pro-lifers constantly bring up race within abortion debates and then want to ignore women of that race and their experiences. 

What are you doing? What are you talking about? @prettyvintageafternoon , can you see this? Can you see that you are the one who brought up race, and then called me a racist, and are now acting like I’m the one who brought it up? 

“Nobody is going to kiss your feet for providing something if they can get the same things somewhere else, so your points were not that great.”

Again, what are you talking about? Who asked them to kiss my feet? You already tried this. You already said PRCs “expect a pat on the back,” and I already said, “nobody’s asking for that.” We’ve done this already. For the final time:

YOU claimed that PRCs do not care. I refuted that with examples of services that they offer. And you are somehow claiming that just because they’re offering services that others offer, that negates it as proof of their care. That’s like saying, “the soup kitchen in the South does not care about homeless people, because you can buy soup at the store.” 

But we’ve already been through this. Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. Can you hear me? Nobody here is acting like you should like PRCs, congratulate them, or give them a Medal of Honor. What I am saying is that you cannot prove your original claim, which is that they don’t care. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. 

“Nobody from a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic is targeting, forcing, or brainwashing people to walk inside. If someone knows they want an abortion, they choose to walk inside - whether you agree with it or not.”

Seriously, @prettyvintageafternoon, can you actually follow any of what I’m actually saying, or are you just going to keep arguing against someone who isn’t here? Someone you made up? 

prettyvintageafternoon. Margaret B Sanger IS the proof that Planned Parenthood is targeting people to walk inside. That was not a pivot. THAT was my proof that black people are being targeted. That, and the clinic’s location in relation to the disproportionate minority populations. 

That was my response to you talking about a particular black woman. It was totally in the natural flow of your argument: YOU brought up that she was black, and that abortion was care that she was receiving, and withholding it was harmful. I responded by saying, “no, Planned Parenthood is not caring for black people like the one you’re talking about, because it is very demonstrably targeting black people, and here are two proofs of how.” 

Now this is getting so repetitive and nonsensical. You have done nothing but repeat yourself or argue with a straw man. For the final time, if you actually want to stand up for what you believe in, and against what I’m actually saying, then stand up against what I’m ACTUALLY saying. Can you respond to these counter arguments—these counter arguments, right here—or not?

• There are more than one type of Pregnancy Resource Center, and all of the ones that offer medical services which qualify for complying with HIPPA, DO comply with HIPPA. So you lied. 
• Adoption agencies which make a profit from living children are a good alternative only to murdering children. 
• When the biggest percentage of a population is white, then no matter where an abortion clinic is set up, it will be in a “predominantly white” area—but that does not mean that it is not also in the largest concentrations of minorities. That is what “minority” means. Therefore: Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate amount of clinics within walking distance to minority-concentrated neighborhoods, indicating racial targeting. 
• Christianity was in Ethiopia long before the slave-traders who claimed to be Christians.

Can you, or can’t you, actually refute what I actually said? Because if you can’t, then everyone reading this is not seeing you stand up for what you believe in. They are seeing you repeat yourself, dodge the counterarguments, and hide behind straw men. 

While you’re doing that, I’ll actually be responding to the new truth claims you brought up. 

“You also don’t get to decide if getting an abortion is part of reproductive rights.  Reproductive rights includes everything from having children to not being sterilized against your will to not having children.”

This is silly. You don’t get to decide that reproductive rights include any of the things you just listed—most importantly, killing the child. Good job, you summarized the debate topic. So now what?

“Also, on the topic of “Innocence” - the person who is pregnant is also innocent.  Whether she had consensual sex or was assaulted, you don’t get to pick whose innocence matters more.

It doesn’t matter how “innocent” the fetus is.  Nothing gets to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent.  Simple.”

How in the world can you omnisciently claim that every pregnant woman is also an innocent woman? What are you talking about? Innocent of what, exactly? Sex? You’re making an argument I’m not making. I never posited that sex was a punishable offense, and that the punishment must always be letting a child live. 

Children are not punishments. Innocence is not in reference to the absence or presence of sex. And for the record, the fault of rape is the rapists. Not the pregnant woman’s—and not the baby’s resulting from the rape. 

I can claim that any and all fetuses are innocent because it has made zero choices. It can’t. It is, by definition, dependent and defenseless. But you don’t get to claim that about pregnant women everywhere—because they all make choices, and you have absolutely zero way of knowing if those choices were good, bad, right, wrong, criminal, etc., universally. 

So what you’re doing here—let’s be so clear—what you’re doing here is believing a narrative that every woman who walks into an abortion clinic with the intent to murder has never made a morally wrong or criminal decision—AND you are implying that this means they can murder children—AND you are implying that children are a punishment that a woman who must carry a child to term is subjected to unjustly. That’s exactly what you’re doing, just to be clear. 

You’re absolutely right: no THING should get to grow inside of someone’s body without their consent. But guess what. A baby is not a “THING” like a tumor or a wart or a cyst. A baby is a human being. And by being a human being, it has rights. And those rights are “you don’t get to kill me, just because my existence is dependent on you, or because your situation is tragic.”

How’s that for simple?

“You telling someone they’re going to have a baby whether they like it or not, when you don’t know their medical history or how they could be affected, is imposing.”

So be it. Me telling someone that they can’t cut their five year-old toddler apart with a knife, whether they like it or not, whether I know their medical history or how that five year-old toddler is affecting their health, would probably also be imposing. But that’s how justice and right and wrong work. If you want to murder, just people are going to impose upon you not to do it. That’s the argument here. You wanna argue against that? 

“When you’re inside of someone else’s body, you don’t get a choice.  If they want to kick you out, you gotta go.  If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.

Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.”

This is the most tired, broke, sad reasoning I’ve ever seen. And it’s just lazy. 

You’re telling me, first of all, that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?

Really? 

Autonomy is defined as “the ability to make an informed, uncoerced decision,” or, in terms of personal sustainability, someone who does not need someone else’s resources to survive.

So I’ll ask you again. Is that what you really believe? That humans have to meet those requirements, or else their bodies are at the disposal of anyone who does meet those standards? I.E. A pregnant woman can think and make decisions on her own, and can, to some extent, feed and care for herself, therefore she should be allowed to murder a child in the fetus stage who can’t do any of those things?

So how about the woman who’s on SNAP? She’s dependent on the United States Food Stamp Program to supply her with sustenance. She’s not autonomous. She’s dependent. Can the United States rip her apart as soon as she becomes inconvenient? Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all. 

Oh, or are you just talking about bodily? Well, how about the person diagnosed with Alzheimer’s? They are not autonomous. They are dependent on someone else for everything—they can’t even make informed decisions, because information disappears from their minds. Should their caretakers, family members, doctors, rip them apart and murder them? No? Why not? They’re not autonomous. Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

How about if that Alzheimer’s patient was living in their son’s house? Then they got sick with Alzheimer’s and literally couldn’t make the choice to move out, because they can’t remember where they are or what they’re supposed to be doing. No way to make an independent choice for their own safety. You’re arguing that the son should say, “if I wanna kick you out, you gotta go. If you can’t survive, that’s a you problem.” …and you’re arguing, furthermore, that the son should not just “kick the Alzheimer’s parent out,” but has every right to grab a machete and start hacking that Alzheimer’s parent to pieces, or poison them, then suck the body parts out of their house. After all, bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous.

How about a three year-old child? Too young to understand sex, dependent on adults to feed and clothe and care for them. Should those adults get to do whatever they want with that kid?  Bodily autonomy pertains to the autonomous, after all.

All you really mean is, anyone who can be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman (I.e. a child who cannot speak up for or defend itself, or even choose to flee the womb) should be killed for the convenience of a pregnant woman. 

That’s what you’re saying. Is that what you genuinely want to be saying? Assuming you even respond to what I actually said.

First of all, if you’re talking about reproduction in within the black population then yes, black women are automatically included in the conversation. How you thought otherwise is beyond me.

Second, if you’re going to bitch and moan about being called a racist, you need to look at the words that you used.

"I didn’t even make the claim not to be racist.”

…Yes, those were your words. If you’re racist, at least be woman enough to say you are and stop acting indignant when other people call you out on it.

Third, yes - I did respond and say that Crisis Pregnancy Centers are not unique for offering services that can be obtained at other places. Furthermore, most Crisis Pregnancy Centers do not follow HIPPA. That’s a fact. And even the ones who do follow HIPPA are pretty questionable, apparently, since a woman had to get one of her fallopian tubes removed after being told that her ectopic pregnancy was viable not too long ago. The main point of a Crisis Pregnancy Center is to pressure women to continue their pregnancies by any means necessary, regardless of any risk to the person who is pregnant.

Any time you are so desperate to pressure others to continue their pregnancy that you set up shoddy alternatives to actual clinics and give people faulty medical advice, you cannot claim that you are acting in the best interest of that patient. Period. And before you ask, “faulty medical advice” includes the following (and yes, CPCs have done these).

• Incorrectly reading ultrasounds
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of mental health problems
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of breast cancer
• Claiming abortion is linked to or the cause of infertility
• Offering abstinence-only education

It’s one thing to offer services to pregnant women. If they take them, that’s up to them. It’s another to intentionally place yourself near abortion clinics to lure people, posture yourself as medical alternative and then tell them things that are not scientifically true and/or tell them things about their pregnancy which are not true, which can put their life at risk.

On the subject of adoption, adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy. If someone is going to adopt a kid, someone else has to carry a pregnancy to term successfully for that to be possible. I don’t care how many women have infertility issues or how many have had miscarriages, it is not the responsibility of an individual to pop out babies so that someone else can have their pick of the litter and choose which child they want to add to their “perfect family.” Someone who is viably fertile and pregnant doesn’t owe you anything. If someone wants a kid, they can pay or adopt a baby. You do not get to treat someone as a free or affordable breeder because you are desperate for a child. End of story.

In response to your argument about Planned Parenthood targeting minorities, being within walking distance =/= targeting someone. Aside from the fact that most Planned Parenthood locations are in majority white neighborhoods and the fact that not all Planned Parenthood locations even offer abortion as a service, being within walking distance of someone does not mean you’re targeting them. If I’m hungry and I want a salad, I can drive right past the McDonald’s nearest to me, go to WalMart and buy my desired vegetables. If someone wants an abortion, they’re going to go to someone who offers that service. That’s literally why women leave states that aren’t abortion-prohibitive to get to places that offer abortion (like Nancy Davis did, whose story you easily disregarded because it wasn’t convenient for your narrative).

Also, Margaret B Sanger did not create Planned Parenthood to target black Americans. Planned Parenthood did not even start offering abortion until after Roe v Wade. She did create birth control clinics and popularized the term “birth control.” Abortion has existed long before her, and despite any problematic opinions that she may have held, anti-abortion zealots like you acting like she’s the boogeyman of the black community in order to justify stripping black people who reproduce of their reproductive rights is laughable.

People want the services that they want. That’s something that “pro-lifers” like you have never understood with regard to conversations about abortion-access. You, a non-black person consistently arguing that abortion is “SoLd tO bLaCk pEoPle As HeAlThCare” literally shows how comfortable you feel infantilizing minorities.

Black people, black woman included, do not need you to ‘save us’ or 'protect us’ from our own reproductive decisions. We can make our own choices, different though they may be depending on which black person you speak to. People in the anti-abortion movement have been using us as an anti-abortion talking point for years, despite a majority of black people not voting for anti-abortion politicians (most of which are conservative), supporting reproductive justice organizations and campaigns (which do include abortion access), etc.

On the subject of Christianity, you bringing up Ethiopia does not dismiss the history of Christians using their religion as a means to justify enslavement or treating black people as less than them. It does not take away from Christians giving versions of the Bible to enslaved people and cutting out stories like Moses’ in order to discourage rebellion. It does not take away from Christian slave owners using their religion to teach slaves to be obedient to them as Christians are to their God. Christianity has played a huge role in the mistreatment of black people within the confines of American history. You, trying to proselytize to me earlier on this conversation and lecture me with your religious beliefs (which had nothing to do with the conversation) does not change any of that.

“Children are not punishments.”

Tell that to the person that you see in the mirror, along with every single anti-abortion advocate who tells women to close their legs, during any abortion-related conversation. You people use forced pregnancy as a means to punish people who have sex constantly. You “pro-lifers” are notorious for that.

If children weren’t punishments to “pro-lifers” like you, you wouldn’t force other people to have them.

Next, your argument about “innocence.” Pro-lifers like you bellyache about “innocent babies being slaughtered” - especially when standing outside places that you think offer abortion, to emotionally manipulate and pressure someone who is pregnant into carrying that pregnancy to term. Y'all are the same people who take photos of people walking into clinics, shout at them, etc. It’s the reason why a lot of places that offer abortion have clinic escorts because people who think like you like to harass patients.

Yes, I did say that pregnant women are also innocent. Unless having sex inside of wedlock or outside of it is suddenly a crime, yes - the pregnant person is innocent.

You saying “the rape is fault of the rapist” is a strawman. I didn’t argue otherwise and neither has any other pro-choice advocate. If someone is forcibly impregnated against their will and they decide to keep their pregnancy, that is their choice. They are well within their rights to do that. Anti-abortion zealots like you forcing a victim of sexual assault to carry a pregnancy to term, if they do not want to, is punishing them for being assaulted.

“You’re telling me that bodily autonomy only pertains to the autonomous?”

Yes.

That’s how that works. Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand.

Someone who uses a governmental service is not…comparable to a fetus. They’ve already been born and they can remove themselves from that governmental program. That is not remotely the same thing as using someone’s body for 9 months (best case scenario) in order to stay alive.

An Alzheimers’ patient has also already been born. While they cannot make their own decisions, however, they are entitled to various legal protections like everyone else. And in most cases, if that Alzeheimers’ patient has family, their main decision-maker regarding their health is their next-of-kin.

Someone with Alzheimers is not autonomous in that they can make their own decisions. That’s why someone else is making decisions for them, in order to maintain their welfare.

A three year old child has also already been born. Killing a three year old is murder - actual murder, not just what anti-abortion weirdos like you call murder. It’s legal murder, which involves the presence of premeditated malice. A woman who gets an abortion is not a murderer. A woman who stabs a 3 year old in the chest very much is. Easy difference to understand, for the rest of us who have functioning braincells.

Comparing a fetus to various racial groups, alzherimers patients, actual children is not the argument that you think it is. It actually makes you look intellectually lazy, which I expect from you at this point.

No “human being” gets to use someone’s body to sap nutrients from or grow against that person’s will. If you want to treat fetuses like everybody else, fine. We will hold them to the same standard.

Also, most abortions are medication abortions and most abortions happen within the first trimster. You arguing that “BaBiEs ArE bEiNg RiPpEd ApArT” is not only not factual, it’s also emotionally manipulative. There are no bodies being ripped apart.

Overall, my beliefs are the following.

1. People are entitled to make their own reproductive decisions, which includes abortion
2. Black people are not the horse on which the anti-abortion movement gets to ride on to justify forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term
3. Nobody owes someone else a kid to adopt just because they’re viably fertile or pregnant
4. If you, especially as a non-black person, support forcing a black person to carry a pregnancy to term because you think they need to breed to maintain their racial population, you are racist. Black people, black women in particular, are not breeders to fulfill any type of racial quota.